What If....No More Tests???

Well.....any competitions. By allowing more people to compete, you may increase interest in the sport. (Also gain enterence fees.) Don't see what would be lost by allowing eveyone to compete without regard to tests. Just letting them sign up and skate "their" level. I really don't think you'd have a run on the senior division. (No one wants to look like a fool.) Also don't think the other divisions would be overrun. I mean, most skaters who want to compete are testing already, so I doubt you'd have that many more. Of course, if you did not actually require the tests to compete, um....some of those skaters may just not bother...which I think is the big problem here, since that would come with a loss of revenue for the USFS and an accompaying loss of "skills" (supposedly). But, this begs the question: What exactly IS a skill? Tonichelle wrote earlier that: "...ice dance work is amazing when it comes to edges which is what skating is about" Maybe it is about that to Tonichelle, but certainly not to me. What makes Tonichelle's opinion right and mine wrong? It was all about single jumps and figure 8s once, too. (Doubt anyone wants to buy tickets to see that at any show.) So, I repeat, what IS a skill? And, more importantly, which ones should be required? I'd love to force the people admire edges/freedance so much to land double jumps/triples and deathdrops in order to compete in dance......Those are what I consider skills....
Tonichelle also wrote that it wasn't fair to allow someone to come in off the street and compete against a person who has put endless hours of practice time and money in tests/lessons. Why? If their skills in jumping/spinning surpass the other's "beautiful edgework" then shouldn't they win? Isn't that "fair"? Just how much weight do you think it is appropriate to give edgework in freestyle contests? Equal with jump/spins? More than jumps/spins?

But the levels that would likely have increases are ALREADY huge groups (Intermediate and below). At our club competition in September, we literally had an entire rink for one day devoted SOLELY to Intermediate ladies. We had another year of RECORD entries, so why would we want more with "drop ins"? Why would judges want to see people skating at a level that they are not really ready for but that they *think* they are ready for?

Would you also remove the limits that are currently in place at certain levels (no triples at Juvenile, no more than 3 doubles at prejuvenile, 2 at preliminary, etc)? There was a time when those limits weren't in place and a lot of bad attempts at things that these kids couldn't do well were going on (crappy triple sals and toes at Juvie) and even more injuries among those pushing for these level-inapproriate elements.

Gosh no! I would definitely keep the limits. How else could you choose the right level?
That many in Intermediate!?? Wow!
And, for the record, I do think people would have a pretty good idea of their skills (most would probably even have a coach.) For example, if I were young, with my skills, I would skate juvenille. As an adult, I'd skate master's senior or champ masters. I would definitely NOT attempt (standard) Novice. (Would get my clock cleaned.)

Champ Masters Junior/Senior and Masters Senior have equivalent skating skills to the "real" Junior and Senior level skaters with doubles and low level triples. Several of the ladies this year had level 3+ spins across the board and all doubles through lutz (including combinations) along with fantastic skating skills, transitions, interpretation and choreography. The speed and flow is the big thing, so if you would skate Juvenile as a younger skater, I hate to burst your bubble but you would not be a good fit for Masters Junior/Senior as an adult, either.

I am an Adult Gold level skater and I know even with the additional doubles it would take to be "equal" technically (I am already able to do level 2 and 3 spins, if not consistently), I am no match at this time from a PCS standpoint and would never make it out of sectionals in Championship. One of my coaches skates at this level and his surety and glide are amazing and just make me jealous at times.

YES, we really had that number of Intermediates. We also had a huge number of Juvies, Prejuvies, Prelims, Prepres, and Novices.

The issues raised in this thread are interesting in several different directions, so I think I'll be making several more separate posts on different topics.

bondgirl said:

I would think bringing more people into the the competions would be a good thing....

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bondgirl said:

That many in Intermediate!?? Wow!

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Standard-track Regionals especially in the larger regions, Adult Nationals, and the more popular club competitions are already pretty much as large as they can be without becoming unmanageable.

Maybe the sport isn't hurting as much as you seem to assume it is.

The places where bringing in more skaters would be welcome would be at some of the less established existing club competitions and in areas of the country that don't have many figure skaters at all, probably because they don't have many rinks. That may be because the population and/or average income level is too low to make a skating rink an economically viable business. If the local culture supports hockey but not figure skating, bringing in the right coach(es) to start up a program might increase participation, but it would take several years to build up.

If the locations are isolated and hard to get to, it's harder to attract out-of-club entries to a local club competition and it's harder/more expensive to bring in judges to judge the competitions or to hold regular test sessions.

Those are geographical challenges such clubs need to deal with regardless of the testing rules.

any competitions. By allowing more people to compete, you may increase interest in the sport. (Also gain enterence fees.)

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Clubs that want to attract more entries to their club competitions for the entrance fees probably also want more skaters to join the club, skate on their sessions, and test at their test sessions. Having a large, active club will help the sport at the local level more than getting $100 or so a year in entry fees from a few people who otherwise want nothing to do with supporting the club.

Triples. By ladies in Master's Senior and Championship Masters?????? Are you sure?? That's interesting because the highest level jump I saw (clean) was a 2axel by Natalie Shelby. Didn't see any triples posted. Do you have a link? Know some men at the adult level have managed a few triples but didn't think any of the women could......
Let's see......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE7FA8lhgqA No triples.Oops, fell on 2toe, Attempted an OF camel.

This one has some nice single jumps.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ldybVYhdc

And here is Natalie (the silver medalist) who did a 2axel but again no triples. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LthDuey_22U (But great edges and line). Here she is at worlds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMvqmTCkK2w Step out on 2axel and, guess what? No triples.

This one attempts a flying sit and has a few nice doubles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR79Pfn7ZB4

Don't worry about my bubble....
With the exception of Natalie, I would be fine skating against any of the ladies whose routines I have seen posted on youtube. Yes, Natalie would probably beat me unless she had a very bad day..... Since Natalie is the silver medalist it is possible the the women who won gold might have landed a triple, but even so that is only one woman. Not many as you implied....Low level triples. No. I don't think so.....

OK. Finally. A triple. Done by a MAN. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NEQEt_OkOw

So who exactly are you referring to when you mention ladies doing triples in adult competition?????

I guess that ice has a lot more participants than I thought. So tests are a type of "gatekeeper" to keep people out? Doesn't that just keep them at lower levels? (Since most of them test anyways.) Or are they hoping to get some (like me) who are discouraged by the whole thing and just don't bother....:disapp:

Upon reflection, I guess testing makes sense to "prove" one's knowledge in order to be a coach. At least you have some kind of credential to show the rink/parents.

I wonder if the Adult Level is as crowded as Standard. If not, maybe keep testing so as to "gatekeep" for standard and allow "open" competition for adults. (I mean, everything is already spelled out for the adults in the sense of the jumps/spins allowed at each level anyways. Why not open it up? ) :yes:

For someone who claims to be so aganist the system, not interested in formal coaching or testing, you do certainly follow an awful lot of the sport

bondgirl said:

Don't worry about my bubble....
With the exception of Natalie, I would be fine skating against any of the ladies whose routines I have seen posted on youtube. Yes, Natalie would probably beat me unless she had a very bad day..... Since Natalie is the silver medalist it is possible the the women who won gold might have landed a triple, but even so that is only one woman. Not many as you implied....Low level triples. No. I don't think so.....

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I would respectfully disagree with you if your skating is as you have described. By your own admission you have no interest in anything other than jumps and at the adult level you can often gain more points from your PCS and non jump elements than you can your jumps. You said you had no interest in turns or basic stroking or in actually getting formal coaching, so i'd hazard a guess that the things you can't tell well from youtube (like speed, flow, ice coverage etc) would all be at a much higher level than you are anticipating. Also if you lack formal ice coaching, i suspect your jumps might nt be as "clean" as you think they are, and you'd have to break your own rule of not getting formal coaching if you hoped to compete with these ladies.

bondgirl said:

So who exactly are you referring to when you mention ladies doing triples in adult competition?????

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It might just be me (and i am being grumpy today ), but you are coming off as pretty attacking in these posts, and as much as you feel disrespected by the skaters you feel talk about you when you skate their freestyle sessions, i feel that you are disprespecting a lot of the adult skaters at this level.

Ant

Well....
Read the posts again. With all due respect, people are attacking me (not the other way around.) "Don't want to burst my bubble" pleeezeee..... Seriously, read them all the way through with an open mind and you willl see it.....

Here's the thing......Skating (ice especially) seems so hung up on this edge/flow MITF idea.....for freestyle.......It's almost as if you are dissing those of us who happen to be good at jumps/spins. Those are difficult and should count too, you know! Just look at the disrespect people on ice boards who can't even land a single axel give Bonaly. (Would love to see anyone who puts her down do a backflip or any kind of triple jump. At all.) There is already a part of this sport dedicated to edges/turns etc. It is called dance.

antmanb, if you can do triples please post and provide a link. I would love to see them.

Tell you what. Obviously, I can't go to Adult Nats. Will make program following rules on USFS site for Masters Senior. Will post it on youtube the week of Nats with a link. You can make up your own mind. Don't think I would have done quite as badly as everyone keeps telling me......

antmanb said:

I would respectfully disagree with you if your skating is as you have described. By your own admission you have no interest in anything other than jumps and at the adult level you can often gain more points from your PCS and non jump elements than you can your jumps. You said you had no interest in turns or basic stroking or in actually getting formal coaching, so i'd hazard a guess that the things you can't tell well from youtube (like speed, flow, ice coverage etc) would all be at a much higher level than you are anticipating. Also if you lack formal ice coaching, i suspect your jumps might nt be as "clean" as you think they are, and you'd have to break your own rule of not getting formal coaching if you hoped to compete with these ladies.



It might just be me (and i am being grumpy today ), but you are coming off as pretty attacking in these posts, and as much as you feel disrespected by the skaters you feel talk about you when you skate their freestyle sessions, i feel that you are disprespecting a lot of the adult skaters at this level.

Ant

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This is where I agree with Ant. I NEVER said that the ladies landed triples. I said LEVEL 3+ spins, double lutzes in combination. I said where you would be lacking from your own admission is in anything other than jumps. PCS is approximately 1/2 of your total score. If you don't do anything but crossovers, your PCS score will be VERY low, even if you manage to land clean triples.
Many of the Masters level adults (Championship Jr/Sr and Int/Nov both) have high level spins (a level 4 change combo spin is worth a double Axel) and high level skating skills. There are TONS of skaters in the adult ranks - there were no less than 12 ladies in Midwestern and Eastern Adult Sectionals and I think 7 at Pac Coasts year in Championship Junior/Senior.

I was NOT attacking, I was OFFENDED by your assertion that YOU would be able to beat these ladies. I am DONE with this thread.

bondgirl said:

Well....
Read the posts again. With all due respect, people are attacking me (not the other way around.) "Don't want to burst my bubble" pleeezeee..... Seriously, read them all the way through with an open mind and you willl see it.....

Here's the thing......Skating (ice especially) seems so hung up on this edge/flow MITF idea.....for freestyle.......It's almost as if you are dissing those of us who happen to be good at jumps/spins. Those are difficult and should count too, you know! Just look at the disrespect people on ice boards who can't even land a single axel give Bonaly. (Would love to see anyone who puts her down do a backflip or any kind of triple jump. At all.) There is already a part of this sport dedicated to edges/turns etc. It is called dance.

antmanb, if you can do triples please post and provide a link. I would love to see them.

Tell you what. Obviously, I can't go to Adult Nats. Will make program following rules on USFS site for Masters Senior. Will post it on youtube the week of Nats with a link. You can make up your own mind. Don't think I would have done quite as badly as everyone keeps telling me......

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It's totally clear to me why you are disliked at your rink. I'm done with this thread.

Ant

Except for gkelly (who was actually thougthful and polite) thank you very much for reinforcing my opinion of ice skaters. Now anyone reading this thread can decide for themselves who was rude to whom. Goodbye.

bondgirl said:

Except for gkelly (who was actually thougthful and polite) thank you very much for reinforcing my opinion of ice skaters. Now anyone reading this thread can decide for themselves who was rude to whom. Goodbye.

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I have tried to stay clear of the discussion, but I have to say that you do seem to be a bit confrontational, bondgirl. How can you expect for people to respect you if you don't respect them yourself?

bondgirl said:

I guess that ice has a lot more participants than I thought.

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Take that revelation to heart. They must be doing something right.

So tests are a type of "gatekeeper" to keep people out? Doesn't that just keep them at lower levels? (Since most of them test anyways.)

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The point is not to keep people out, but to sort skaters who want to compete into appropriate competition levels against their peers. It keeps people in by giving them appropriate ways to participate once it becomes clear they're not going to achieve an elite skill level. Or along the way to the higher levels if they started at a later age than most.

Tests also give skaters goals to achieve that may be more attainable for them than competitive success.

Or are they hoping to get some (like me) who are discouraged by the whole thing and just don't bother....:disapp:

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That's not the intention. It may be the unintended effect for a small percentage of adult skaters who learn jumps more quickly than most because of other athletic experiences they bring to skating.

I wonder if the Adult Level is as crowded as Standard. If not, maybe keep testing so as to "gatekeep" for standard and allow "open" competition for adults. (I mean, everything is already spelled out for the adults in the sense of the jumps/spins allowed at each level anyways. Why not open it up? ) :yes:

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Sorting the adult competition levels is already a nightmare of complexity because you have skaters who tested in different decades with different requirements, skaters at the same level with 40-year age differences between them, skaters with strong skating skills who can no longer do double or triple jumps they once could but shouldn't be competing with single jumps against adult starters who have just learned single jumps or against skaters of similar skating skill who can still land double lutzes and double-double combos.

Suppose the adult competitions were opened up to allow skaters to move up or down the competition structure at their own discretion.

There could be competition levels that limit the jump content the way the current adult levels do now. Skaters who can't or don't want to pass the gold or intermediate MITF tests but can do harder doubles could still sign up for the junior/senior or championship events and see how they fare. Or there could just be an "unrestricted adult" event for anyone who doesn't qualify for masters but does want to include a variety of double jumps.

For the high-level older skaters, or advanced ice dancers dipping into freestyle as adults, who don't do double jumps but do have strong skating skills, I think we want to discourage or disallow them from entering the current bronze and silver freestyle events, to keep those events fair for skaters who have worked their way up to those levels.

Maybe offer an event that requires a 3-minute program and that includes a full-rink step sequence and full-rink spiral sequence in addition to allowing single jumps and all spins. Those requirements would discourage true bronze and most silver-level skaters from entering and would be a good fit for the strong overall skaters who don't do double jumps.

bondgirl said:

Testing is interesting in that it requires the freestylists to do MITF and basically high level dance turns/moves without in turn requiring the same of the dancers (to do high level freestyle moves.) Would love to force dancers to preform 2lutz before they are allowed to take the senior dance test. But the freestylist must preform the senior MITF before being allowed to test freestyle....um....

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But Senior Freestyle skaters don't have to take any of the high level dance tests (Gold compulsory, Internationals or Senior free dance).

Pairs, Freestyle, Synchro and Dance all have to take the MIF in conjunction with additional tests in their own discipline (except synchro there are no tests but they need to test moves to compete.) I would hazard a guess that most skaters and coaches don't view MIF as high level dance, but as basic skating. And for the most part, once skaters are ready to take a freestyle test, they are more than ready to take the corresponding moves test.

But I'm not sure if you are objecting to the MIF test or all tests in general, or the existence of competition requirements?

I was just looking at the Tests Passed for June 09 on the USFS website. I would guess there were over 3000 tests passed. So that is over 35,000 tests passed per year. If you look at the number of non-qualifying competitions, there are thousands and thousands of skaters competing at every level. Many of these skaters never compete at regionals and sectionals, let alone nationals. The testing system, along with the competition structure, sets up a framework for skaters and coaches to know which of the dozens of levels to compete in. I think the magnitude of numbers would make it very difficult to manage it any other way.

There are many skaters who rarely compete, but still use the testing system to set goals and progress through the different levels of skating. I also think it's helpful for coaches to have a set of requirements they have to get young skaters through. While parents are pushing for more and more jumps and spins, coaches can stick to the test/competition requirements and help develop a well-rounded skater. Figure skating is NOT just about the jumps. It is only because my daughter is progressing through testing (MIF, dance and freestyle) that I have come to appreciate this.

Bondgirl, I can understand your frustration. You want to be able to participate in the sport and do the things you enjoy and are good at, and not to be forced to spend your time and money on the things you don't care about. I'll admit you have a point when you say that if skating skills are so important, it is fair to let untested skaters enter competitions and just let the judges mark their PCS accordingly (sort of a self-regulating market, if you will). I think the problem you are running into is that the sport of figure skating started off being *solely* about the edges--not spins or jumps--and there is a strong sentiment in the sport to make sure the "skating" in ice skating does not get replaced by the sport of "ice jumping."
I know it would cost a lot of money, but maybe you could save up to participate in the international adult competition in Oberstdorf, since there are no test requirements for that. Meanwhile, maybe you could put a program together and practice skating in front of an audience in club recitals? I don't know about your local FS club, but ours has a Spring and Winter recital, no test level classifications.

First of all figure skating is a very disciplined sport, It also is very structured. One advances from one level to the next that is why there are so many tests. The tests are not designed to discourage a skater. They are a measuring rod so the coach and skater know the progress the skater has made from lesson to lesson. Personally I am quite proud of all my badges and pins I earned when I figure skated. Although it has been many years since I figure skated, I still have my little box with my treasures stored in it. It takes me back when I look at them and I still get a sense of accomplishment from that. Taking tests also help a skater improve.

Figure skating is very precise. It takes hours of work to perfect every move. Coaches spend a lot of time with their pupils teaching them how to do every intricate move to perfection. If skaters just showed up to compete without the help of a coach there would not be the calibre of skating that we fans have come to know.

There are several books that may help you to understand more about the history of figure skating and its structure. I recently picked up a great book myself that was written in the 1960s. Of course there have been many changes since then but it's good to read about the early days of skating when figures counted.

I hope this answers your question.

Compromise is Good

Maybe some sort of compromise is called for.......

Add New Catagory: Gold Open

Just require the adult gold MITF as a minimun requirement (and allow any level above to enter), and open it up to all legal skating moves. That way adults who excel at freestyle can include their hardest stuff. (Wouldn't that be great to show the "kids.") Could possibly compromise and take up to adult gold, but there is no way I can make it all the way up though the senior MITF in order to use my "hard stuff." Obviously, adults who would rather have a restriction on jumps would not enter the Gold Open even but, rather, stay in regular Adult Gold event. This would be fair for everyone and people like me would be encouraged enough to work moves because at least we only have to test up to gold. It seems to be a win-win.

PS. If anyone on this board is either in the same situation I am (freestyle ability greatly exceeds MITF ability), please personal message me through the forum. Also, if you know anyone like this (usually ex-roller or ex-gymnasts) please direct them to this thread so they can contact me if they want. Thanks!

bondgirl said:

This one has some nice single jumps.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ldybVYhdc

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Gee. Thanks.

Wow Bondgirl, you've spent 10 months on this diatribe, you could've been on your intermediate by now.

You just keep building that goodwill!!:chorus::chorus::chorus: