Except for gkelly (who was actually thougthful and polite) thank you very much for reinforcing my opinion of ice skaters. Now anyone reading this thread can decide for themselves who was rude to whom. Goodbye.
Last edited by bondgirl; 11-05-2009 at 11:51 AM.
The point is not to keep people out, but to sort skaters who want to compete into appropriate competition levels against their peers. It keeps people in by giving them appropriate ways to participate once it becomes clear they're not going to achieve an elite skill level. Or along the way to the higher levels if they started at a later age than most.So tests are a type of "gatekeeper" to keep people out? Doesn't that just keep them at lower levels? (Since most of them test anyways.)
Tests also give skaters goals to achieve that may be more attainable for them than competitive success.
That's not the intention. It may be the unintended effect for a small percentage of adult skaters who learn jumps more quickly than most because of other athletic experiences they bring to skating.Or are they hoping to get some (like me) who are discouraged by the whole thing and just don't bother....
Sorting the adult competition levels is already a nightmare of complexity because you have skaters who tested in different decades with different requirements, skaters at the same level with 40-year age differences between them, skaters with strong skating skills who can no longer do double or triple jumps they once could but shouldn't be competing with single jumps against adult starters who have just learned single jumps or against skaters of similar skating skill who can still land double lutzes and double-double combos.I wonder if the Adult Level is as crowded as Standard. If not, maybe keep testing so as to "gatekeep" for standard and allow "open" competition for adults. (I mean, everything is already spelled out for the adults in the sense of the jumps/spins allowed at each level anyways. Why not open it up? )
Suppose the adult competitions were opened up to allow skaters to move up or down the competition structure at their own discretion.
There could be competition levels that limit the jump content the way the current adult levels do now. Skaters who can't or don't want to pass the gold or intermediate MITF tests but can do harder doubles could still sign up for the junior/senior or championship events and see how they fare. Or there could just be an "unrestricted adult" event for anyone who doesn't qualify for masters but does want to include a variety of double jumps.
For the high-level older skaters, or advanced ice dancers dipping into freestyle as adults, who don't do double jumps but do have strong skating skills, I think we want to discourage or disallow them from entering the current bronze and silver freestyle events, to keep those events fair for skaters who have worked their way up to those levels.
Maybe offer an event that requires a 3-minute program and that includes a full-rink step sequence and full-rink spiral sequence in addition to allowing single jumps and all spins. Those requirements would discourage true bronze and most silver-level skaters from entering and would be a good fit for the strong overall skaters who don't do double jumps.
Pairs, Freestyle, Synchro and Dance all have to take the MIF in conjunction with additional tests in their own discipline (except synchro there are no tests but they need to test moves to compete.) I would hazard a guess that most skaters and coaches don't view MIF as high level dance, but as basic skating. And for the most part, once skaters are ready to take a freestyle test, they are more than ready to take the corresponding moves test.
But I'm not sure if you are objecting to the MIF test or all tests in general, or the existence of competition requirements?
I was just looking at the Tests Passed for June 09 on the USFS website. I would guess there were over 3000 tests passed. So that is over 35,000 tests passed per year. If you look at the number of non-qualifying competitions, there are thousands and thousands of skaters competing at every level. Many of these skaters never compete at regionals and sectionals, let alone nationals. The testing system, along with the competition structure, sets up a framework for skaters and coaches to know which of the dozens of levels to compete in. I think the magnitude of numbers would make it very difficult to manage it any other way.
There are many skaters who rarely compete, but still use the testing system to set goals and progress through the different levels of skating. I also think it's helpful for coaches to have a set of requirements they have to get young skaters through. While parents are pushing for more and more jumps and spins, coaches can stick to the test/competition requirements and help develop a well-rounded skater. Figure skating is NOT just about the jumps. It is only because my daughter is progressing through testing (MIF, dance and freestyle) that I have come to appreciate this.
Bondgirl, I can understand your frustration. You want to be able to participate in the sport and do the things you enjoy and are good at, and not to be forced to spend your time and money on the things you don't care about. I'll admit you have a point when you say that if skating skills are so important, it is fair to let untested skaters enter competitions and just let the judges mark their PCS accordingly (sort of a self-regulating market, if you will). I think the problem you are running into is that the sport of figure skating started off being *solely* about the edges--not spins or jumps--and there is a strong sentiment in the sport to make sure the "skating" in ice skating does not get replaced by the sport of "ice jumping."
I know it would cost a lot of money, but maybe you could save up to participate in the international adult competition in Oberstdorf, since there are no test requirements for that. Meanwhile, maybe you could put a program together and practice skating in front of an audience in club recitals? I don't know about your local FS club, but ours has a Spring and Winter recital, no test level classifications.
First of all figure skating is a very disciplined sport, It also is very structured. One advances from one level to the next that is why there are so many tests. The tests are not designed to discourage a skater. They are a measuring rod so the coach and skater know the progress the skater has made from lesson to lesson. Personally I am quite proud of all my badges and pins I earned when I figure skated. Although it has been many years since I figure skated, I still have my little box with my treasures stored in it. It takes me back when I look at them and I still get a sense of accomplishment from that. Taking tests also help a skater improve.
Figure skating is very precise. It takes hours of work to perfect every move. Coaches spend a lot of time with their pupils teaching them how to do every intricate move to perfection. If skaters just showed up to compete without the help of a coach there would not be the calibre of skating that we fans have come to know.
There are several books that may help you to understand more about the history of figure skating and its structure. I recently picked up a great book myself that was written in the 1960s. Of course there have been many changes since then but it's good to read about the early days of skating when figures counted.
I hope this answers your question.
Maybe some sort of compromise is called for.......
Add New Catagory: Gold Open
Just require the adult gold MITF as a minimun requirement (and allow any level above to enter), and open it up to all legal skating moves. That way adults who excel at freestyle can include their hardest stuff. (Wouldn't that be great to show the "kids.") Could possibly compromise and take up to adult gold, but there is no way I can make it all the way up though the senior MITF in order to use my "hard stuff." Obviously, adults who would rather have a restriction on jumps would not enter the Gold Open even but, rather, stay in regular Adult Gold event. This would be fair for everyone and people like me would be encouraged enough to work moves because at least we only have to test up to gold. It seems to be a win-win.
PS. If anyone on this board is either in the same situation I am (freestyle ability greatly exceeds MITF ability), please personal message me through the forum. Also, if you know anyone like this (usually ex-roller or ex-gymnasts) please direct them to this thread so they can contact me if they want. Thanks!
Last edited by bondgirl; 11-13-2009 at 08:29 AM. Reason: Added PS
Wow Bondgirl, you've spent 10 months on this diatribe, you could've been on your intermediate by now.
You just keep building that goodwill!!:chorus::chorus::chorus:
Actually, 10 months ago, I was on inlines and not interested in this forum.
And there is nothing wrong with the observation. She has some very nice single jumps. I have some very nice double jumps. Rachael Flatt has some very nice triple jumps. ..... It is an observation, not an insult....
Seriously, why the prejudice against jumpers? It is not this way in roller. They respect the jumpers there. Anyone who can land a triple is almost a god.....No one calls them "jumping beans"...(btw. I'm starting to love that name. Have ordered several shirts for practice with jumping beans on them.) It seems almost as if there is an active dislike on ice at the adult level for the jumpers. They kids aren't like this. The ice kids still respect the jumpers. It is only the adults who seem to have a problem. I wonder why?........Don't you want to see an adult land triples after age 30? If anyone does mange it, it will be one of the "jumping beans."
Last edited by bondgirl; 11-26-2009 at 01:02 AM. Reason: Added stuff
Speaking of which...
ETA: You keep saying we don't "respect" jumpers. I do, and I'm sure everyone else does too. Immensely. The difference is, all the jumpers we respect have worked their butts off to get where they are. They didn't try to create new events in order to circumvent the system and suit their own needs. And we don't treat them like the "gods" you say you have in roller. We are all just people, trying to do our best in a sport we all love. A lot of us have worked very hard to get adult skating to where it is today, so to have someone come along and try to tear down our hard work? That's what a lot of us don't respect. Simple as that.
Last edited by daisies; 11-26-2009 at 03:24 AM.
I referred to you in third person because I was answering another post. If you prefer I will use second person and address you directly: You have some very nice single jumps.... (That is not an insult and it is not ment sarcastically. If you took offense to me referring to your video, I am sorry. I was arguing with another poster who, it seemed to me, had implied a much higher jump level in that division. There is nothing wrong with single jumps. However, I believed this poster had implied a different level of jumps in that particular division.....so I referenced videos off youtube. Did not mean an insult by it. Just an observation.)
I did not post a link to myself because I only recently put up ice skating. HOWEVER...if you really want to see me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sum3u3PuGF8. Yes, I wrap my jumps. I come form roller where this is NOT considered a technique flaw. Yes, in any jump event on ice I would get slammed on GOE. (But would get credit for fully rotating the jump. Know this for a fact. Asked USFS technical expert on an email.) Just started 2axel and the triples a few weeks ago. Can't say that I will ever land them, but I am going to try. (But I am old with a bad back so we will see.....)
I have to disagree with you. At the adult level, you DO disrespect the jumpers. (Jumping beans, pleeeeze. Actually, I like my new shirts. Will wear them whenever I practice.) Don't you realize that it is the jumping beans that will get adults their triples????!! Natalie Shelby is a lovely skater. I see what you mean about edges. She is very beautiful.....however....based upon her element level at this point in her career she is skating at roughly an equililvant level to a standard intermediate skater. (2axel and level 3-4 spins.) There is an elephant in the room. The jumps, as much as you disparage them, DO dictate your level. I'm sorry, but it is true. You can argue and ignore it all you want.....But it won't go away....(Like that pesky elephant.) The jumps denote your level on roller and on ice. Maybe you would prefer to see a beautiful "Dorothy Hammill" routine full of georgous edges and low level doubles. (Most of the adults seem to prefer that.) I am not arguing with your preferences. (That is personal. I perfer Bonaly, of course. But then, as I said that is a personal preference.) However....element wise she is skating a juvenille level (maybe prejuv) routine.Of course, it is with all positive GOE's (which is what I believe you are trying to point out and I DO understand that.) However....it is still a juvenille level routine......
Actually, I DO get some respect on ice....from the KIDS. (And not only because I am an adult. They show respect/accept me because I can still jump like them.) THEY respect the jumpers. It is only the adults who seem to have a chip on their shoulder and write/say things like you see here. The kids are very nice.'
And I do not expect to be worshiped the way it was on roller...but I also do not expect to be insulted. Yes, I do want to change your system. Frankly, it never envisioned "us." (Adults who come from other sports who find freestyle easy, but not the moves.) Heck, why NOT change the system.......YOU DID!! Test level restrictions that are MUCH harsher than on kids because adults (supposedly) find jumping harder.....Well, I don't. But the rules were changed to help YOU. As I have been lectured, when the adult events started they really didn't have a test structure requirement or restrictions, then YOU changed the rules to suit YOU. So there you have it. It seems people DO change rules, don't they?
And just because the majority of people support something does NOT make that thing right. If this technology existed two hundred years ago and I was on a message board trying to argue for the women's vote with other women, I guarantee I would also have been ridiculed by the majority of women. You ice skaters are so conservative. The is nothing wrong with change. Don't be threatened by it.
Last edited by bondgirl; 11-26-2009 at 08:42 AM.
Actually the committee over the past ten years has changed the adult structure. The adult committee is a large committee and represents skaters from all levels adult and masters, pairs, dance and free skate. Proposals are brought to the committee they go through Lexie and then are brought to the committees where they are debated on.
No one individual changed the rules they were done for the betterment of adult skating the fact that you DO NOT want to participate in the current adult structure is an issue YOU have. Every other adult skater who wants to participate follows the rules. Once again, why do you think you are an exception to the rules that everyone follows.
I like watching good skating, that means clean jumps with good technique, solid spins that are centered with nice clean positions, transitions that maintain flow and interpet the music well and match the phrasing of the music. I prefer Abbott and Daisuke to Plushenko and Joubert. They all do awesome jumps but some have simple 2 foot stroking between quads where others have intricate beautiful steps between jumps and into jumps, things flow easily. Skating is about making it look easy...all of it.
You have really managed to alienate yourself, you don't listen and the mantra, everyone hates me because I am a jumping bean is just silly. No one thinks your skills are that awesome other than you. Why you think you don't have to follow the same rules every other skater in the US has to follow is just confusing.
I do agree with you in that it is very unlikely that USFS will ever change the rules. While you find this fortunate, I find it very unfortunate. But, as you mention, that is how it is....
But it is interesting the amount of .....nastiness....that has been directed at an idea. My proposals have always been on a objective level. Even when I referred to videos to demonstrate the jump elements at certain levels (sorry, dasies), I did not do so to be intentionally mean or nasty to anyone....
Cannot say the same for many of the other posters on these boards. There is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking a person. Maybe you do not like the fact that I disagree with your sport/system, but as I said, I did so objectively, not personally. So if I made enemies, just by implying that there, perhaps, could be an additional event added, (so that people like me could compete), then that is too bad. Maybe it is for the best. If this is the attitude of the adult skating community, (personal attacks and nastiness to anyone who dares to disagree with them), then I really don't want to be part of it.
But something good DID come out of all this.....Believe it or not, on both of these boards, I have been contacted by a few skaters who actually seemed friendly. They just did not want to publically support me because they did not want to get slammed. So I guess I did build some "goodwill" after all........
As for my skating skills. Will post what adult camps I plan on attending. Coskater, maybe YOU could come in person to practice with me. (Since you in particular seem very taken with me. ) We could do doubles together. Maybe even triple attempts. It will be fun.
Last edited by bondgirl; 11-26-2009 at 11:15 AM. Reason: added stuff