Jenny's latest: Problems with Cop | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Jenny's latest: Problems with Cop

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
The thing is that Yu-na's great technique didn't come easily for her. I remember reading reports about how if for example as a kid she cheated a jump, she'd have to do laps around the rink (for example).

I mean of course Yu- na had natural talent, but I would discount the hours of work that she did to get as good as she did.

Yes, a good point. I wonder if little Caroline would have had the necessary stamina to run around the rink as punishment.
See, another of Yuna's talents - stamina ;) :)

Did you notice how Yuna was not even breathing hard after her LP at TEB?
 
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bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Yes, a good point. I wonder if little Caroline would have had the necessary stamina to run around the rink as punishment.
See, another of Yuna's talents - stamina ;) :)

Did you notice how Yuna was not even breathing hard after her LP at TEB?

I actually think Stamina at times is one of Yu-na's weaknesses.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I actually think Stamina at times is one of Yu-na's weaknesses.

Only when she was injured and undertrained that I have seen. I said she is exceptional - not superhuman.

And speaking of the ever popular mum's - didn't Mao's mum used to make her walk on hot coals when she missed a 3 Loop :laugh:
 

Wicked

Final Flight
Joined
May 26, 2009
I'd like to weigh in with my perspective- someone who has watched skating casually since the days of Tai and Randy and who is not 1/10th ( probably not even 1/100th!) as knowledgable as most of you here. I'm kind of evolving from the casual fan into the serious fan, but not there yet, not by a longshot. I didn't understand what the scores under 6.0 meant. Felt the same way about the 10.0 system in gymnastics. I couldn't figure out what the judges were looking at that made them give someone a 5.8 instead of a 5.9 and don't even get me started on ordinals! I find the current system much easier to understand. Yeah it has many parts but I feel that the judges are really looking at a person or team's skating and evaluating it in all aspects, rather than just watching and giving an arbitrary mark at the end. As long as commentators do a good job of explaining where scores come from, casual fans will get it, at least enough to allow them to enjoy it. No system will ever be perfect and there will always be subjectivity and opportunities for cheating in any sport that has rules and people there (refs, judges) to enforce them.

I think the reason figure skating is declining in popularity in the US is that there is no marquee skater who has caught the fancy of Americans. Personally, I think Yu-Na (or possibly Mao) could be this skater, but they are not being promoted in the US. I don't think the current US lady skaters have star quality. I think Mirai may develop it, but not yet. Sasha coming back will spark some interest, but I think people, especially casual fans, want to see someone new.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Just because something is difficult it doesn't mean it should be done poorly. But I don't actualyl know what i'd do to change it to make it better.

My suggestion: Tweak the scale of values so it's always more valuable to raise the GOE by 1 point than to raise the level by 1. Possibly even twice as valuable. And continue to encourage the judges to reward well-done elements with positive GOEs.

Make it worth the skaters' while to choose to do a level 1 or level 2 element really well instead of chasing the higher levels at the expense of quality.

I'm going to make another thread for some specific suggestions.
 

jeff goldblum

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
That's not a good thing, in my eyes, and only underscores the fact that the cheated-jump issue needed to be addressed a long time ago.

However, someone mentioned that Men's figure skating has started to become more artistic. Well, with fewer quads, they've also become less technically demanding, too (IMO.)

I would say we do need to re-visit some of the rewarding/penalizing margins for issues regarding jumps and other elements.

Don't misread me. My point is not that Shizuka Arakawa, Sarah Hughes (maybe an exception here), and Tara Lipinski were going around cheating jumps left and right and that it was swept under the rug. My point is that they won the Olympics because they were strong skaters and all strong jumpers, regardless of a few degrees of lost rotation here and there. The fact that I am trying to impress upon this board, and in particular this discussion, is that this does not constitute cheated jumping. I forget who it was now, but another poster indirectly backed me up on the issue, reiterating that a normal triple jump may have as little as 2.25 rotations in the air. This is what is physically (as in physics) normal.

Of course any sport should strive for advancement of its athletes and it would be great if more skaters started jumping more strongly because of the way the judging works. Think about how far jumps have progressed in the last 50 years or so. Not in terms of rotations being completed or not, but things like bring the arms in close to the body and crossing the legs tightly; both these things have made more difficult jumps possible. The point is that what is being penalized is normal and technically proficient and I question whether whoever is coming up with the rules is setting unrealizable standards. It's at a point where it may only hurt the technical aspect of the sport.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Don't misread me. My point is not that Shizuka Arakawa, Sarah Hughes (maybe an exception here), and Tara Lipinski were going around cheating jumps left and right and that it was swept under the rug. My point is that they won the Olympics because they were strong skaters and all strong jumpers, regardless of a few degrees of lost rotation here and there. The fact that I am trying to impress upon this board, and in particular this discussion, is that this does not constitute cheated jumping. I forget who it was now, but another poster indirectly backed me up on the issue, reiterating that a normal triple jump may have as little as 2.25 rotations in the air. This is what is physically (as in physics) normal.
I am not misreading you, Jeff Goldbum. My literacy is top-notch. :)

Your argument was along the lines of (and correct me if I'm wrong, and adjust the way you structure your arguments) "historically speaking, this is how female jumpers jumped, and how they won Olympic titles, so why the drastic changes, I liked the guidelines before as is."

I already had a more specific discussion with Blades of Glory in another thread regarding the air-rotation issue. The 2.25 approximation is not etched in stone and is subject to a certain interpretation of other rules. For example, it may be said that 2.25 air rotations is reasonable for certain triple jumps where the technique allows up to 1/2 pre-rotation before taking to the air (e.g. triple loop), but for other triples, it is probably NOT normal (e.g. triple flip--especially for the guys) and I found a lot of quality 2.5+ air rotational triple-jump examples from skaters not even considered the best jumpers. So throw out that conception of "normal". (btw, I only submitted to 2.25 because of BoP's insistence that even 2.5 rotations in the air for those typically 1/2 pre-rotated jumps is to demand too much perfection.)

Secondly, I am objecting to a norms-based-standard; I don't care so much what is currently or has historically been "normal" and "acceptable", especially within the female figure skating establishment. We already know that it is possible. Do you think YuNa or Joannie have some freaky genetics where their anatomy or muscles aren't ordinarily human? Can you think of non-biological reasons why their techniques and methods are exceptions? (I already proposed some non-physical--as in physics--reasons why it may be so.)

Third, what was "normal" is contextual, with respect to the rules of the day and motivation. Let me explain. The argument "most girls jumped like that and it was accepted" is within the 6.0 era which we already agreed was more lax about underrotations, etc. That means less motivation to push harder for a different "norm". So it's not a very good argument. I already posted here explaining why motivation and execution are both tied hand-in-hand. Bottom-line is, just because it was normal in the past doesn't mean we can't get to a higher, better "normal".
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
You just called me Blades of Glory.

I thought our love ran deeper than that.

cry.gif


I don't think I will ever recover from being compared to something involving Will Farrell.























Although, you did correctly abbreviate my name as BoP later in your post. All is forgiven!

;)
 
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roundboypete

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Although, you did correctly abbreviate my name as BoP later in your post. All is forgiven!

He’s the top!
He’s the Coliseum.
He’s the top!
He’s the Louvre Museum.
An expert he, on the C-O-P or Cop!
So baby, don’t call him Glory, call him Bop! ♫ ♪
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
You just called me Blades of Glory.

I thought our love ran deeper than that.

cry.gif


I don't think I will ever recover from being compared to something involving Will Farrell.
LOL omg I DID! :rofl: I always had that association whenever I saw your username, so it snuck out that time, I guess.
 

NatachaHatawa

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
I'm not going to comment on whether so and so deserved whatever grades, but here's something that such an analysis (amongstloads of others) proves:

The CoP was created in order for judging to be fairer, and for the grades to be undisputed. Did it succed in that mission? Hell no!
Beyond what one actually thinks on the judging system itself, I think we can all agree that it failed in it's aim, which was to make judging flawless and undisputed. If that is so, then I don't see any logical reason to see it continue to kill figure skating the way it is. Change is needed. The actual detail of the kind of change needed is another debate.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I'm not going to comment on whether so and so deserved whatever grades, but here's something that such an analysis (amongstloads of others) proves:

The CoP was created in order for judging to be fairer, and for the grades to be undisputed. Did it succed in that mission? Hell no!
Beyond what one actually thinks on the judging system itself, I think we can all agree that it failed in it's aim, which was to make judging flawless and undisputed. If that is so, then I don't see any logical reason to see it continue to kill figure skating the way it is. Change is needed. The actual detail of the kind of change needed is another debate.

Very good point which remembers and addresses the reason for the change of scoring systems. I agree that it is not working as intended but think with more twonking it will eventually be OK.

Twonking = major changes much greater than tweaking ;)
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
He’s the top!
He’s the Coliseum.
He’s the top!
He’s the Louvre Museum.
An expert he, on the C-O-P or Cop!
So baby, don’t call him Glory, call him Bop! ♫ ♪

You are too cute. I bet there is a teddy bear in your likeness somewhere.
 
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