Jenny's latest: Problems with Cop

Bravo Jenny, I couldn't agree more with your comments and insights.

http://trueslant.com/jenniferkirk/2009/11/02/simplifying-skaters-routines-best-for-the-sport/

COP is not going away. There are constant adjustments and improvements being made to it each year. The system has only being used for the past five World Championships! Skating is in a lot better shape today than it was in 2006 and it will only get better as the years go on.

janetfan said:

Bravo Jenny, I couldn't agree more with your comments and insights.

http://trueslant.com/jenniferkirk/2009/11/02/simplifying-skaters-routines-best-for-the-sport/

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100% agree.. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
This is what Sonia keeps saying as well, unfortunately she can't put it as clearly as Jenny does.. I actually felt exhausted after watching COC last weekend, because honestly I am now at a point where I try to make myself like some of the skating I'm seeing.
There was also a great article about the artistic side, while some might not agree with it, I think it deserves a read..
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/current/content/Curtis.htm

I agree with her assessment. Considering Korpi's rather poor performance and the silver medal awarded her it makes me wonder more and more about some judging decisions. It is sometimes a blatantly unfair and inconsistent sport.

i love to skate said:

So Jenny's solution is that there should be a third judging system implemented. That will do wonders for the sport! :banging:

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Where does she say that?

COP is not going away. There are constant adjustments and improvements being made to it each year.

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There was one change made this year that slightly reduces the severity of penalties for underrotated jumps that look good.

Kirk's main complaint seems to be that the downgrade penalty is still too severe. That could be addressed with more adjustments and improvements to the existing system, rather than scrapping the system and starting from scratch inventing a new one, which I don't see mentioned anywhere besides your post.

gkelly said:

Where does she say that?

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You are right I misread the last paragraph she wrote. Sorry...I'll go edit my original post!

i love to skate said:

So Jenny's solution is that there should be a third judging system implemented. That will do wonders for the sport! :banging: COP is not going away. There are constant adjustments and improvements being made to it each year. The system has only being used for the past five World Championships! Skating is in a lot better shape today than it was in 2006 and it will only get better as the years go on.

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I like your optimistic outlook - but just saying skating is in better shape doesn't make it true.

Of course my opinion's are no better or more true than yours.
I agree with you that adjustments are being made but not so sure they have all been improvements. I think Jenny raises good points about some of the criteria for the way jumps are being scored.

Keeping in mind that skating can not and will not thrive when only a very small group of extremely knowledgeable skating experts are happy with the system is a point that seems worthy of consideration.

It seems obvious that if Jenny, as a former skater herself is puzzled by the outcome of COC, then how in the world are the more casual fans supposed to undertsand, agree and even enjoy what we are seeing?

I really respect your knowledge and opinions but it also feels like you defend CoP without much consideration for what less informed skating fans are seeing and feeling.

So far, we have seen much more sloppy skating than good skating this season. I believe that to be a factually true statement. I think the system is partially to blame as are so many question marks about the scoring of certain top skaters.

I believe more tweaking is necessary - much more before this system will be helping skating rather than hurting it.

Just my opinion - and even though I am still watching I am enjoying it less.

I have to disagree; Once again I have to say is figure skating a sport or not. Her complaints seem to be that things that would be look over in 6.0 era is now being penalized; Once again the battle over quality and risk has begun. I see as either you do it or you don't; you either rise to the occassion or you dont; I think with figure skating competitors being so young we feel the need to (baby them)
And so you also fall into the line of if we downplay ur; is that fair to the skaters that rotate their jumps(Joannie ; Akiko; Yu-na etc) Some even believe Mirai jumps in the short were UR and that she got lucky; Of course i don't expect volunteer judges to be 100% accurate ;they are human; So this comes to line that maybe some skaters should simplfy there program or they should just take the risk. To be this is no different from have a touch down called back do to a penalty;in football

I'm also curious what people thought of the interim system?

janetfan said:

I like your optimistic outlook - but just saying skating is in better shape doesn't make it true.

It seems obvious that if Jenny, as a former skater herself is puzzled by the outcome of COC, then how in the world are the more casual fans supposed to undertsand, agree and even enjoy what we are seeing?

I really respect your knowledge and opinions but it also feels like you defend CoP without much consideration for what less informed skating fans are seeing and feeling.

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I really do think skating is in better shape. In 2006, the skaters had just been introduced to COP and there were Beillman's galore, messy positions and low speed in spins, and horrible death spirals. Today the programs are much more smooth and the positions are better. It's true that the performances haven't been fantastic so far but the skaters are all wanting to build for the Olympics - we have to remember it is only the beginning of November. By the time Skate Canada comes around I think we will start seeing amazing improvement in the competitors.

Maybe I do defend COP without thinking of the casual fan. I just don't buy the arguement that COP is that much harder to understand that 6.0. Ordinals were a messy, messy system and I think that even fewer people would have been able to understand that if they had been shown what the complete list of ordinals looked like. Thank you for your kind words

Well said, Jenny!

Good post by Jenny. I wonder if she visits any of these skating forums.

At this rate, we will just going to see 2A and 3T and 3S in any competition. The downgrade system just getting out of hand a little bit. It's already bad enough that you see skater with only 2-3 clean triple jumps getting on the podium.

Skatetomusic said:

I'm also curious what people thought of the interim system?

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Worst of both worlds.

Well, what can I say? She nailed it!

Other than the 6.0 sentiment that's EXACTLY how I feel. I've explained in another thread a suggestion I have to possibly improve the way jumps are scored.

I generally don't agree with Jenny's judging posts, but she made a decent point here. If you look at Korpi and Nagasu's programs back to back, there is no comparison; Nagasu did skate better, and if, for the common fan, they see one skater skate considerably better than another, yet still lose, it makes the sport confusing, unnerving and ultimately unentertaining. Thus, while I am a big CoP fan, this is another example of where certain things do need revision. There is probably too big a deduction for a UR jump that's basically rotated and looks nice; hopefully in future competitions this will be resolved.

When people are posting, and I'm not just talking about the skating forums, but also other places online; that they're enjoying Battle of the Blades more than the GP Series this year...There is a *huge* problem.

Many are also saying it's good to see those old marks back because they can understand them, as well as it's good skating and none of the ugly positions we're being forced to watch due to the skaters having to do them regardless of the fact they can't do them well, because if they don't? Well, forget those Level 3 and 4's we're being told is all important. People are also saying it's lovely to watch a twizzle free program, which ITA w/. At this level, I expect the skaters to be able to spin around on one foot at speed. I don't like having to see it in every single blessed program though and it's getting a bit tiresome to watch.

I've said it before. All COP is, is window dressing in response to what happened in SLC. Instead of making the sport better, it's not only not doing that, but it's succeeding in driving fans away. Oh, I forgot...We've now got a judging system that no one can understand. Why would someone want to watch a sport they don't understand the outcome of when someone who's skated a sloppy program beats someone who's been perfect!?!

I've tried now for four years and that's even reading the material many times. I still don't understand it and what's worse, I can't explain it and I've tried. How can I defend this sport when those in charge of it haven't given us that love and truly care about it a system that's not able to be explained or defended?

I've had a bad feeling about this system from the beginning, but was willing to give it an honest trial to see "What if?". Well, that time period is over and...It's simply not working. And don't talk to me about "tweaking". That should have happened long before this thing was rammed down the Figure Skating World's throats by a group who know nothing about Figure Skating, but do understand all about money.

This is what I fear is happening. Figure skating seems to be headed more and more toward the model of, say, wrestling.

Is wrestling sport or entertainment? Well, wrestling is as sportly a sport as anyone can wish, at the amateur level. There are matches for high school and college athletes. The competiors get points for performing various feats of skill and strength. The meets are duly attended by the parents of the participants, and every four years someone wins a medal at the Olympics.

Then there is professional wrestling, which is the equivalent of Todd Eldredge dressing up as Frankenstein's monster for a Halloween special.

This is what was good about 6.0. The audience could get involved in the scoring. "Wow, Michelle is in a zone! I'll give her a 5.9! What? The Russian judge gave her a 5.5?! Booooooo!!!!!"

Now, all the audience can do is sit there dumbly, waiting for the experts (or the protocols the next day) to tell us what we ought to think.

Yes, the CoP brings figure skating more in line with other sports -- but at what cost?

The skaters that are skating today - probably up to age 10 have no idea what 6.0 was. Whether people like it or not there is a new generation of fans and skaters coming up that will have no idea that 6.0 existed and when they hear about it - it will probably seem just as foreign to them as COP does to some fans today.

The best thing about COP is that it gives skaters feeback. Even at the lowest levels skaters understand what they need to improve above. Whereas when I was competing the judges would really only comment on your presentation or looks. I actually had a judge say to me once that I wasn't being "sexy" enough during a solo....hello, I was eleven. Anyways, I will take COP advice over this kind of advice anyday.

BTW, skating is still the second most in demand sport at the Vancouver Olympics (behind hockey). It will always have the aspect of drama, rivalries, good looking men and women, and human interest stories. It won't be going anywhere

^ I agree that the CoP is a better scoring sytem for the skaters and their parents and coaches.

My concern is more about audience appeal.

Maybe that's OK. There are lots of sports that do not attract much of a live or television audience, but it is still a valuable and fun experience for the youngsters.