Has CoP Destroyed Asada? | Golden Skate

Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Watching Mao going back to last season it has become clear that something is effecting her skating.

Some have suggested she has grown, another said she is too old. :)
Has Mao grown so much in the last year or two? Maybe an inch is all I would say.
As to her age, she still appears quite healthy and energetic to me.

Some have suggested Tat, the coach of so many champions over the years has ruined Mao. That just sounds like an excuse to me.

We also hear that the meddling of the JSF is to blame for Mao's decline. Somehow I doubt if the JSF is doing anything but supporting Mao to the best of their ability.

The most obvious conclusion seems to be that the recent CoP rule changes have hurt Mao badly, enough at this point to have shaken her confidence.

Shouldn't we be wondering and worried that one the most talented skaters in the history of the sport has lost so much and so quickly?

Anybody care to explain how the decline of one of skating's greatest and most marketable stars is good for figure skating?

And will Mao bounce back in time for Vancouver?
 
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wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Good insight!!

I think COP does destroy some aspect of figure skating, as it's making skaters 'cut and paste'. All these jumps, spins and elements are repeat after another. Not to mention it's nip picking every little details.

Part of Mao problem start with when COP start nip picking edge calls, and under rotatation problem. While COP is not solely to blame for Mao problem, it doesn't help either. Not just Mao, many skaters suffer with COP rule changes and we are seeing more and more skaters only peak for one or two season and decline quickly b/c the system is too demanding to follow.

Can she bounce back for Vancouver? Only time will tell and we will see what stage she is in in December when she compete at Japanese National championship. What Mao needs is a coach who understand COP system inside out. And don't be such a hard critic on herself. I mean no body can be perfect and flaws are what make certains skaters appealing.

Forget about flutz. Forget about making history with 3A. Just follow the rules and what is work, instead of making unrealistics goals and keep pressing 'self destruct' button.

I sure hope she is bounce back to her former self and remind everyone why she was a world champion.
 

Medusa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
The question is - how far would Asada have gotten under 6.0, especially with her jump layout? In 2005 she was ridiculed for her jump layout, here and elsewhere. "Only Flips, Loops and Axels - no Salchow, no Toeloop, not real Lutz". Would 6.0 crowned her a multiple Champion without a Triple Toeloop, without a Triple Salchow? Plus all the double-footing, that she always was prone to - those jumps wouldn't have been counted under 6.0 (at least not normally).

I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.

:clap:

Did Mao not win Worlds under COP? Her downfall has been being coached by Tat, using programs that do not play to her strengths, having not so great technique on her jumps, and putting too much emphasis on her triple axels. If all of these factors are visible to fans I have no idea what the Japanese federation is thinking in allowing her to continue down this path. COP has nothing to do with her struggles, IMO.
 
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Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
No, I don't think is COP. I think it's all in Mao's head. Even when you see her on the ice getting ready, you can tell she's not comfortable. Maybe she was used being the skater to be chased and now baaam Yuna scores 70+ in a SP and gets a 10 point lead. Meanwhile she is dealing with a 3Axel that seems to abandon her when she executes it in competition.

COP doesn't create a repetition of jumps... I mean theres what, 6 different tipes of jumps (toe, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel), of course skaters will be bound to repeat them... if anything they aren't risking much, by not doing certain jumps.

UR calls are out of control, I don't see why you should get twice penalized by having it downgraded, and then getting deducted GOE. But I'm getting away from the subject.

I think it is an issue of confidence. Maybe Mao thinks the 3A is what will place her ahead of the pack, and maybe the easy solution (changing her combo jump) would actually place her closer to her goal. I imaging executing a 3A requires a lot of confidence, and if she has problems there, it will reflect in her presentation. I don't think is a matter of age or TAT (if she was baaaad to her, I don't think she would be silly to stick with her). I just hope Mao can figure it out.
 

life684

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
No, I don't think is COP. I think it's all in Mao's head. Even when you see her on the ice getting ready, you can tell she's not comfortable. Maybe she was used being the skater to be chased and now baaam Yuna scores 70+ in a SP and gets a 10 point lead. Meanwhile she is dealing with a 3Axel that seems to abandon her when she executes it in competition.

COP doesn't create a repetition of jumps... I mean theres what, 6 different tipes of jumps (toe, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel), of course skaters will be bound to repeat them... if anything they aren't risking much, by not doing certain jumps.

UR calls are out of control, I don't see why you should get twice penalized by having it downgraded, and then getting deducted GOE. But I'm getting away from the subject.

I think it is an issue of confidence. Maybe Mao thinks the 3A is what will place her ahead of the pack, and maybe the easy solution (changing her combo jump) would actually place her closer to her goal. I imaging executing a 3A requires a lot of confidence, and if she has problems there, it will reflect in her presentation. I don't think is a matter of age or TAT (if she was baaaad to her, I don't think she would be silly to stick with her). I just hope Mao can figure it out.

Whole post:rock: and agree 100% with your post. Hope she can work with some sports Psychologist.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Mao skated her whole junior and senior career under CoP. It never bothered her in the begining. Of course growing two years ago hurt her some in that she does not get the height that she used to in her jumps, thus is not subject to under roattion. Yes, CoP hurt in that they changed the rules so you don't have shot if you lutz or underroatte (look what happened to Kimmie). Then of course Yu-na came, which would be a problem under any sysytem, but especially since she and David Wilson and brian orser are CoP wizards and make the judges drop down and worship :bow: the mighty Yu-na.

Mao's only weapon is her triple axel (which is worth a lot, nobody else can do) so she puts an emense amount of pressure on landing it, which as anybody in sports will tell you is a recipe for failure. How many times does a baseball player hit a grand slam when down by three runs in the bottom of the ninth?
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.

Should the question be "how would Mao do under 6.0?

That may be a good rhetorical question - but since Mao is skating under CoP I don't think that point, although well taken - is so relevant.
But since you asked I believe the beauty of Mao's skating, her superior postions and extensions, and her incredible skating skills would have done extremely well under 6.0.

The blame has been placed almost exclusively on Tat and the JSF for the past few weeks so I thought it would be interesting to look at this from a different angle.

The subject of Mao and CoP has not been discussed and it is reasonable topic to consider.
Thanks for all the views on this topic. I remain unsure why Mao is having such a bad season. Maybe we should start blaming her costumes :p

.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
"To every thing there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven."

Count me in the too old category (literally. :) )

“There is a tide in the affairs of men, which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries.”

IMHO the ISU rule that killed Mao was not the CoP but rather the age rule that prevented her from mopping up the ice with Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya in 2006. Mao beat Arakawa three times in the fall of 2005 (Cup of China, Eric Bompard, Japanese Nationals), she beat Sasha at Eric Bompard, and she crushed Slutskaya at the Grand Prix Final by more than 8 points. The next year she scored 199 points at NHK.

Michelle Kwan was world champion at age fifteen in 1996. If the Olympics had been held that year, she would have been golden.

Instead -- the tide comes in and the tide goes out. Fourteen-year-old Tara Lipinski won the U.S. and World championships, then the Olympic gold medal at 15. Slam, bam, thank you ma’am.

This is not to say that every skater peaks at a precocious age. Yu-na Kim and Kristi Yamaguchi hit their stride at 19. Maria Butyrskaya :rock: at 26. But no one is the fastest gunslinger in town forever.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
changes in rules hurt her

I do not think it COP, but changes in rules. I am neither saying that the rules should not have changed nor agreeing with the conspiracy theory that changes were introduce specifically to attack Mao. But it is still true that Mao was one of those skaters who were hit by these changes.

Namely, her flutzing and a slight UR in 3F-3Lo combo have become severely penalized. These were not considered as a problem in 2005-6 or 2006-7.

Stricter calls on flutzing and slight UR in 3F-3Lo would be contributing a lot to her declining confidence.

She is trying to solve the problem with a sole reliance on 3A, which is pretty destructive.

As I said earlier, I do not necessarily say that rules should not have changed (although I do not necessarily agree with all the changes, either). But perhaps things would have been easier for Mao if these stricker rules had been introduced when she had been younger.
Her flutz and 3F-3Lo used to be evaluated so positively until recently and things suddenly changed. now, she seems to have too little confident in these jumps to put them into programs despite that perhaps she has not technically lost these jumps.
Adjusting to something newer at the middle of career is not easy.
 
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life684

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Count me in the too old category (literally. :) )

“There is a tide in the affairs of men, which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries.”

IMHO the ISU rule that killed Mao was not the CoP but rather the age rule that prevented her from mopping up the ice with Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya in 2006. Mao beat Arakawa three times in the fall of 2005 (Cup of China, Eric Bompard, Japanese Nationals), she beat Sasha at Eric Bompard, and she crushed Slutskaya at the Grand Prix Final by more than 8 points. The next year she scored 199 points at NHK.

Michelle Kwan was world champion at age fifteen in 1996. If the Olympics had been held that year, she would have been golden.

Instead -- the tide comes in and the tide goes out. Fourteen-year-old Tara Lipinski won the U.S. and World championships, then the Olympic gold medal at 15. Slam, bam, thank you ma’am.

This is not to say that every skater peaks at a precocious age. Yu-na Kim and Kristi Yamaguchi hit their stride at 19. Maria Butyrskaya :rock: at 26. But no one is the fastest gunslinger in town forever.


I am not sure whether mao would have won the gold at 2006
olympics, especially considering Mao an Yuna are of the same age and if Mao was allowed so would yuna be allowed to qualify for Olympics.

Many people only remember that Mao won GPF, but she lost to yuna at world Juniors. Yuna successfully completed all her jumps and did a 3f+3t and 2a+3t, and she was always musical and that helps in PCS.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
If Mao and Yu-Na were in competition, Arakawa would have been more serious about doing her 3-3 and probably still would have won. She peaked at the Olympics and was up to the challenge.

Sasha and Irina may have been off the podium, though.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
If anything COP have seem to widen the gap between the men and women seeing how it has effected the two disciplines differently; As the men field grows larger more competitive and artistic the womens field dwindles and becomes a game of who can fully rotate;
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
If Mao and Yu-Na were in competition, Arakawa would have been more serious about doing her 3-3 and probably still would have won. She peaked at the Olympics and was up to the challenge.

Sasha and Irina may have been off the podium, though.

I have seem both Mao and Yuna from that year and their Jr World performances were really good - but as long as Shiz remained on her feet and skated the way she did she would have beaten them both and I think rather convincingly.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Mao's problem is that she has grown just enough (and her body proportions may have changed slightly as well) to put her 3A out of commission. She adds to the problem by insisting on continuing to try to land three 3As in her two programs. When she doesn't completely rotate her 3A and/or falls on it, the result is her scores plummet.

People on site at CoC last week reported that she wasn't landing the 3A in practice, either. The jump just isn't there, and may never be there again. Can she beat Kim without it? Probably not.

IMO, what Mao needs to do is stop concentrating on beating Kim, but simply skate the best that she can. And if that means not doing the 3A, then so be it. She has many lovely qualities in her skating and I'd love to see her enjoy skating again. Lately, she seems so up tight and unhappy.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Nothing has destroyed Mao but Mao herself!!

Is that something like "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" :)

BTW, I have a feeling Mao is far from "destroyed," but I do have my doubts if she will be on the Olympic podium this February.

The eagerly anticpated ladies competition in Vancouver may turn out to be a major snoozefest, comparable or even worse than the men's competition from Torino.

I don't think that will exactly help boost TV ratings or raise interest in figure skating, particularly in skating's hottest market.

I asked if Mao's decline was good for skating in general? Maybe it can't be helped but she certainly does have star power and fans all over the world.

I recall the little blonde pixie who regularly skated circles around her opponents back in the early 70's but still didn't win the Gold medal. Skating was aware of her star power and by how disgruntled fans were becoming seeing lesser skaters placed above her at the biggest events. So they did something about it by way of reducing the value of school figures and introducing the short or technical program.

She still didn't win :disapp: but I think it is of interest that the ISU recognized she was unique and had something most of the other skaters didn't have.

I think Mao falls into this category and if she does retire or become a non-factor I think it will take skating a couple of years to recover and to replace her.

This does not mean CoP is to blame, or Tat, or whatever.
It's just the way it is ......
 
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Binthere

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Janetfan I totally agree. And I am so envious of your tagline or name or whatever we can them. Janet Lynn will always be my favorite. I skated when she was the best and as much as we all should have felt defeated by how amazing she was, she could only uplift everyone around her.

I think Mao has a special quality that may or not be best rewarded by CoP. I wish her the peace of mind to go out onto the ice in Tokyo and just skate for herself. This will be very tough to do, but it is what I hope for her. If she does, I will be giving her a standing ovation in my living room. Medal or no medal.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
If anything COP have seem to widen the gap between the men and women seeing how it has effected the two disciplines differently; As the men field grows larger more competitive and artistic the womens field dwindles and becomes a game of who can fully rotate;

Lol that's so true. Men are becoming who is more artistic and the gap is getting narrower and narrower, while ladies field are becoming who can rotate the jumps.
 
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