Ladies vs. Men and the CoP

The recent ladies' and men's short programs at NHK raises again the question of why men's figure skating seems to be getting better and better, while the ladies are getting worse and worse.

In a sport like basketball, no one is much interested in following the women's side of the game because women's basketball is just like men's basketball except that, objectively speaking, the lady athletes are not nearly as skillful. Is the ISU judging system pushing figure skating in the same direction?

Mathman said:

The recent ladies' and men's short programs at NHK raises again the question of why men's figure skating seems to be getting better and better, while the ladies are getting worse and worse.

In a sport like basketball, no one is much interested in following the women's side of the game because women's basketball is just like men's basketball except that, objectively speaking, the lady athletes are not nearly as skillful. Is the ISU judging system pushing figure skating in the same direction?

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Geez, you stole my next topic

But my proposal, to keep CoP for men and have the Ladies return to 6.0 might get me banned until after Vancouver

Actually CoP works just as well for the Ladies as it does the men. Part of the problem is that one skater seems to be flourishing and may have raised the bar too high for the others.

But didn't we see one skater at Torino do the same thing to the rest of the men's field while it was the Ladies who had a better competition?

Maybe too many skaters are trying for too much and the coaches and choreographers need to re-think what is realistic to expect from today's skaters.

Perhaps more ladies coaches and choreographers should be trying to program a smart program that showcases their skater's strength and reduce risky elements for the respective skater to maximize the points from the CoP system. Maybe this is another transitional period when many teams are learning to adjust to the tweaking of the rules.

What if we let Yu-na Kim join the men's competition. Would anyone notice that one of the athletes is a little different from the others?

The only sport I can think of where the ladies hold their own in terms of audience appeal is tennis. I think the reason is that men serve the ball so hard that there are not many long rallies or service breaks, so the women's game is more interesting.

I guess my question is, is there anything about ladies figure skating these days that sets it apart? Or are ladies just not-very-good men?

Mathman said:

I guess my question is, is there anything about ladies figure skating these days that sets it apart? Or are ladies just not-very-good men?

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Spiral sequences. For better or worse.

I haven't watched the NHK short programs yet (or learned the results -- please don't tell me!). So I'm not sure what the point of the original question is. What is it about ladies' figure skating these days that you don't think lives up to men's figure skating?

I think the men have been more interesting and varied artistically since well before the new judging system, so I wouldn't blame the system for that difference.

Uh, Yu-na would get crushed in men's competition... no 3A, no quads, non-level4 step sequence, most likely lower PCS also.

What sets ladies apart... hmm. Well they probably look better to the men audience than the men (unless the men in the audience are of an alternate orientation, I suppose.) They should be able to express more in the way of artistry using their feminine sensibilities. Or if a certain country does not have strong entries in men's competition then the ladies would look more appealing.

Mathman said:

What if we let Yu-na Kim join the men's competition. Would anyone notice that one of the athletes is a little different from the others?

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One of these things is not like the others ~~ Happy 40th anniversary, Sesame Street!

Mathman said:

The only sport I can think of where the ladies hold their own in terms of audience appeal is tennis. I think the reason is that men serve the ball so hard that there are not many long rallies or service breaks, so the women's game is more interesting.

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Oooh, I love men's tennis 100X better than women's. :yes::yes:

gkelly said:

What is it about ladies' figure skating these days that you don't think lives up to men's figure skating?

I think the men have been more interesting and varied artistically since well before the new judging system...

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I guess what I mean is something like this. In the olden days, it seemed like ladies figure skating was kind of a separate endeavor from most athletic contests. It wasn't so much how fast you can run, how high you can jump, how far you can throw a ball. In ladies figure skating it was more how you did things, than what you did. Dorothy Hamill had a breathtaking delayed single Axel (still does). Sure, a man can jump higher, but so what?

In school figures, it wasn't the quantity of the figures but the quality.

Now with the emphasis on how many points you get for each move, it just rubs it in our face that, yes, a lady can do a double Axel (a mere 3.5 points), but a MAN can get 7.8 points, so why waste our time watching the puny efforts of the ladies?

shallwedansu said:

One of these things is not like the others ~~ Happy 40th anniversary, Sesame Street!

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It was worth starting this thread for that!

Mathman said:

I guess my question is, is there anything about ladies figure skating these days that sets it apart? Or are ladies just not-very-good men?

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I think the ladies do cooler looking spins. :yes:

But yes, right now the mens' field is incredible deep and infinitely more exciting than ladies. Do you think it will continue after the Olympics with all the retirees?

I just thought of a better way to explain this.

I always felt that Michelle Kwan was a better skater than Michael Weiss or Timothy Goebel, two U.S. men’s champions from the Kwan erea.

Was she really? Michael Weiss could do a triple Axel and Michelle couldn’t. Timothy Goebel could do two different quads and Michelle couldn’t even do one. Still, ecstatic audiences agreed with me that Michelle was an exceptional talent, as did the general public and sports news media folks who showered her with accolades and celebrity. And so did the judges, who gave Michelle 5.9s and 6.0s compared to 5.6s for the guys.

Under CoP judging it is perfectly clear that Michelle wasn’t fit to lace up the boots of Weiss and Goebel. All we can say on Michelle’s behalf is, well, she was pretty good for a girl.

I agree with Mathman. In the men's event there are always many great guys fighting for the top, wheras the women are fighting to stay afloat. I feel that pair skating is suffering a similar fate to ladies skating where all the programs look the same and the winner usually has at least one good-sized mistake.

Mathman said:

IUnder CoP judging it is perfectly clear that Michelle wasn’t fit to lace up the boots of Weiss and Goebel. All we can say on Michelle’s behalf is, well, she was pretty good for a girl.

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And doesn't that help explain why we called our favorite ladies "Queen " or "Princess."
Those titles are about appreciation and admiration.

Even Chris Evert (the last great lady champion who "played like a girl") was often called the "Queen of the Courts" back when she was #1.

I do recall Michelle referring to Yuna as the "Dominator" and who knew just how prophetic Michelle's words would be? :yes:

The girls could just be in a slump. This sport, like others does go through cycles.
Some here claim that in 2-3 more years of this strict CoP judging all UR's will be eliminated and edge calls will no longer be necessary as Cop will get all girls to learn proper jumping techniques .

I wish I had such faith in CoP. I think it will be tweaked again and again until they get it right. Say in time for the 2222 Olympics....

Tinymavy15 said:

I agree with Mathman. In the men's event there are always many great guys fighting for the top, wheras the women are fighting to stay afloat. I feel that pair skating is suffering a similar fate to ladies skating where all the programs look the same and the winner usually has at least one good-sized mistake.

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But why is that? Sometimes I think that COP is more suited to mens skating than to the ladies.Right know we have an exceptionally gifted men's field. Other than YuNa and until recently Mao not many other ladies have excelled under COP, just look at the scores from the recent Grand Prix events or maybe it is just cyclical and it is the mens turn to shine. It is not like it is the first time we have had a group of exceptionally talented men competing.

demarinis5 said:

But why is that? Sometimes I think that COP is more suited to mens skating than to the ladies.Right know we have an exceptionally gifted men's field. Other than YuNa and until recently Mao not many other ladies have excelled under COP, just look at the scores from the recent Grand Prix events or maybe it is just cyclical and it is the mens turn to shine. It is not like it is the first time we have had a group of exceptionally talented men competing.

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I think Irina and Sasha both shined under COP, and they were two completely different skaters. I think the issue right now is the woman's field doesn't have a lot of depth. And a lot of the top ladies (Rochette, Ando, Kostner are quite inconsistent) Ando tends to skate up for the big competitions, but the other two have been a bit headcaseish their entire careers. Especially of course Kostner. Then you probably have American ladies being the weakest they've likely EVER been, and we have the scenario we have.

As for Mao, personally I think the flutz needed to start being deducted, it was an injustice that it wasn't marked off. Although I can see why the change so quickly would be shocking.... And they were clearly starting to crack down on underrotations for awhile. I think though that maybe Mao will adjust to her new technique on the lutz and flip and she may be looking better next season.

This being said I don't think the situation in ladies is that dire. Suzuki skated really well in Russia. Murakami will be coming up next year and she's quite lovely. Then there's the Russian Juniors who will be eligible in the next few years. Polina Shelepen is a very talented jumper with the ability to do 3/3s and making the 3toe look like a 2toe, so she will hopefully start to challenge Yu-na technically. And there are the other two who will be eligible in Sochi.

shallwedansu said:

One of these things is not like the others ~~ Happy 40th anniversary, Sesame Street!

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OMG!!! LOL!

The way I feel is...awww, too bad, so sad...no more graceful, pretty programs from ladies in competition. They keep tripping and falling over the weight of the rules! :boohoo:

And now all these poor, sad ice princesses who are getting downgrades and deductions everywhere, they don't feel so special anymore.

Well, that is why we have Exhibitions and Ice Shows.

If you're going to have a sport that is competitively judged, standardization and rigour maximizes the potential for consistent judging and fairness.

btw, I saw a beautiful delayed single by Peggy Fleming the other day, I think. Yes, it was lovely. I wouldn't mind extra points being given for things like that (or e.g. split jumps), under some title of "Miscellaneous Elements" or something. But that's more to do with again, modifying CoP rules.

I still watch Women's Figure Skating more often than Men's (this was NOT true in the 2001-2002 year.)

Women and men don't run differently in Track & Field; women and men don't swim differently in Swimming. We still separate the events because people are still interested in watching competition in the respective fields.

Men's and Women's Figure Skating are still very much different from each other, not only because of certain elements (like spirals) but also because of different kinds of Interpretation, Performance, Choreography, etc.

When/If one day, a drag queen puts on a skirt and competes as a top contender in the Men's field, then I may wonder why I watch the Ladies.

prettykeys said:

And now all these poor, sad ice princesses who are getting downgrades and deductions everywhere, they don't feel so special anymore.

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To me, its more like, oh poor, sad us. Figure skating is not so special any more.

Well, that is why we have Exhibitions and Ice Shows.

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Indeed.

bekalc said:

(snip) I think Irina and Sasha both shined under COP, and they were two completely different skaters..

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Yes they did but I was talking about the current ladies and the current COP system. Irina and Sasha competed under COP when it was first implemented and a lot has changed since then. Not sure if they would have shined under the current system. If Sasha's competes we will see how she does.

Mathman said:

In the olden days, it seemed like ladies figure skating was kind of a separate endeavor from most athletic contests. It wasn't so much how fast you can run, how high you can jump, how far you can throw a ball. In ladies figure skating it was more how you did things, than what you did.

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That was true for the men too.
But you didn't get the commentators gushing about how attractive and charming the men were as visual commodities the way they did with the women; the commentary focused more on the technical side, or abstract discussions of aesthetics when warranted.
(Well, by the 1990s you did get some women commentators daring to gush a little.)

And many of the men resisted the incentives to make their skating refined and beautiful. If they could win by executing more difficult content or by expressing other kinds of artistry, we got to see them. Otherwise they lost to the guys who could do one more more of those things well.

Mathman said:

Under CoP judging it is perfectly clear that Michelle wasn’t fit to lace up the boots of Weiss and Goebel. All we can say on Michelle’s behalf is, well, she was pretty good for a girl.

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One way you could make a direct comparison would be in the program components. The judges are using the same scale to give numbers to both the men and the women. It's a good bet that Kwan would get better numbers there than Goebel.
You need to look at the actual individual scores for each component, not the total PCS, because that's multiplied by a factor that is lower for the women. (The reason it is lower is to make the PCS numbers comparable to the TES, which tends to be higher for the men because they tend to do harder jumps and jumps contribute the biggest chunk of the TES.)

Now for some what-ifs.

The general principles behind scoring system could be retained, but the point values could be rejiggered so that the hardest spins and step sequences are as worth much as or more than double axels, maybe significantly more, both in base mark and in potential positive GOEs. Those would be areas where women could rack up at least as many points as men.

The well-balanced program rules could be adjusted so that women get the same time limit and the same number of jumping passes as men.

Also change the well-balanced program so that women (and men) would have the option of replacing one or two of those jump passes with another spin, another step sequence, or a(nother) spiral sequence. Which would be worth doing for those skaters who can earn higher scores on those elements than on another jump.

Use the same PCS factor for both sexes.

Those tweaks would close most of the gap in long program scores.

Now here's another what-if.

Just for fun, how about holding a unisex competition, short program only. The men have to skate under the ladies' rules.

That puts the jump content limits back to what they were for men in 1998. More men than women will include triple axels and/or triple-triple combos, so we would still expect men to rack up more points for the jumps.

But how many men are going to be able to execute level 4 laybacks and spiral sequences with positive GOE? The women's areas of superiority (as a group, not all individuals) will become readily apparent.