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Thread: CoP and Music

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    CoP and Music

    I was thinking that the next natural progression for CoP might be to do away with music in the SP.
    I have read comments about this before at GS and used to scoff at them.

    But philosophically I see this as the direction the sport may be headed under the current ISU regime.

    With skaters being put under such microscopic scrutiny for technical elements it feels like music interpretation and the originality of their programs has become secondary.
    I think this was part of the point Jenny was making in her article about Brian and Jeremy. She called it favoritism but I think it might have been more accurate for her to turn her objections to the direction CoP seems to be headed.

    Does it make any sense under CoP for Jeremy to work on such intricate choreography with such attention to nuance only to see Joubert's much less intricate choreo and more casual music interpretation receive equal or better scores?

    Apparently not - and Jeremy would be better off practicing quads and skating a program without so many beautiful transitions and such sensitve musical interpretation.

    If this trend continues I will certainly be disappointed and I am not sure if I can call what we are seeing this season progress or the best direction for a sport that has always been appreciated for the way it successfully blended sport and art.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-10-2009 at 10:06 AM.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    You've been reading too much Jenny Kirk. Joubert skated well to music that suited his style, and Abbott did the same. If the ISU wants to encourage cookie cutter skating, by all means, give high scores only to those who can skate to specific things.

    If anything, I'd say the system is not encouraging quads enough - else we'd see a lot more skaters doing them. I really don't see how you can seriously argue skaters should drop everything and train quads; everything about the system these days seems to encourage exactly what you're saying it discourages - lots of transitions and triples out of footwork. A great skater like Jeremy makes that wonderful to watch; less great skaters make it a bore to watch. We've had two quadless World champions, the highest score this season was by a skater without a quad.

    Skaters should train to be the best they can be, regardless of their style of skating, and the system should make it possible to succeed without having everyone skate in a specific style. We need guys like Abbott and Chan and Oda, but also skaters like Joubert and Lysacek and Plushenko and Contesti, who take a different approach.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    You've been reading too much Jenny Kirk. Joubert skated well to music that suited his style, and Abbott did the same. If the ISU wants to encourage cookie cutter skating, by all means, give high scores only to those who can skate to specific things.

    If anything, I'd say the system is not encouraging quads enough - else we'd see a lot more skaters doing them. I really don't see how you can seriously argue skaters should drop everything and train quads; everything about the system these days seems to encourage exactly what you're saying it discourages - lots of transitions and triples out of footwork. A great skater like Jeremy makes that wonderful to watch; less great skaters make it a bore to watch. We've had two quadless World champions, the highest score this season was by a skater without a quad.

    Skaters should train to be the best they can be, regardless of their style of skating, and the system should make it possible to succeed without having everyone skate in a specific style. We need guys like Abbott and Chan and Oda, but also skaters like Joubert and Lysacek and Plushenko and Contesti, who take a different approach.
    I think you make very good points and give me a lot to consider. Many others post here that quads do not receive enough points. But what about rotating 4 times and then falling - and being given points for a jump that anyway you look at it failed? How much consideration do we need to give a quad? Should trying one, whether successful or not somehow make your pcs better? That's what it looks like to me. I could also care less if I ever saw a quad again because many triple jumps are much better looking imo.

    Your points are all well taken and because I disagree doesn't mean I don't think your opinion is equally good or better.

    But if anything, the scoring between Jeremy and Brian favored Brian with or without his quad. His choreo and interpretation is simply not in the same league with Jeremy. To mark it as being just as good seems like a flight from reality.
    Maybe Jenny was right afterall and it was simply another example of favoritism unsuccessfully disguised by CoP scoring.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-10-2009 at 10:48 AM.

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    End subjectivity,reduce PCS, fix the COP! schiele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I think you make very good points and give me a lot to consider. Many others post here that quads do not receive enough points. But what about rotating 4 times and then falling - and being given points for a jump that anyway you look at it failed? How much consideration do we need to give a quad? Should trying one, whether successful or not somehow make your pcs better? That's what it looks like to me. I could also care less if I ever saw a quad again because many triple jumps are much better looking imo.

    Your points are all well taken and because I disagree doesn't mean I don't think your opinion is equally good or better.

    But if anything, the scoring between Jeremy and Brian favored Brian with or without his quad. His choreo and interpretation is simply not in the same league with Jeremy. To mark it as being just as good seems like a flight from reality.
    Maybe Jenny was right afterall and it was simply another example of favoritism unsuccessfully disguised by CoP scoring.
    I agree with Buttercup completely but I'll leave that argument aside for now.
    Janetfan, just simply consider this. Jeremy did attempt the quad in the long (and good on him for that) so it's not like he's avoiding risk taking and is punished for it. However, he fell all over the place with most of his jumps and with such a performance, do you think he was unfairly pushed off the lead? A 5 point difference between Jeremy's and Brian's PSC caused an unfairness in the final ranking of these skaters? Have you ever clearly (I'm underlying clearly) seen an instance where Brian was unfairly put up on the podium by inflating his PCS, although he failed to deliver technically? The only instance that comes to my mind, which may be questioned, is 2009 worlds, where Tomas might have been 3rd instead. But that is a close call.
    I can see you are yearning for Kwan type of skating and skaters, but these people are rare exceptions that can flower under any system. Take Lambiel for example, he shined both under 6.0 and IJS. And he was a perfect example of a skater model that Jeremy is inspiring at I believe.
    So frankly, I don't think the alleged "favoritism" is considerably affecting the end result very much at the end of the day. If skaters are clearly shining (either in Lambiel style or Joubert style, or any other style), they eventually get rewarded. Diversity is what makes this sport great and clearly lack of diversity is why the ladies field is suffering at the moment. (Just a small note at the end..)

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    The sport rewards a lot of different kinds of skills.

    Not everybody is going to be able to excel at all those skills.

    For those who excel at some of them, why not reward that excellence and also give appropriate credit for just average achievement in the other areas?

    One skater may have great transitions and interpretation because A) that's where his biggest talents lie and B) he has chosen to work on those areas to maximize his talents. He also works on things like jumps, but he's never going to be one of the best in the world in that area. Should he stop working on the areas where he can be one of the best in the world to focus on the areas where he can't?

    Another skater may have great jumps and great projection to the audience. Those are where his biggest talents lie and he has chosen to work on them to maximize his talents.

    He also chooses music he feels comfortable interpreting and makes a good effort in that direction, along with token efforts at transitions. Even if he made those areas his top priority, he would never be the best in the world at those skills.

    In the area of jumps, where it's possible to set records with jump content as ratified by the technical panels, regardless of the subjective evaluations of judges, this skater may aim at record-setting achievements and may sometime succeed. Which would be exciting for the skater and for everyone who follows the sport and is impressed when the technical bar is raised.
    And then the skater has to live up to those achievements in future performances.

    So why not let this skater push to excel in the areas where he can be best in the world, and do as well as he can in areas where he will only be average?

    The only problem comes when judges don't make enough distinctions between the various components and give the latter skater higher scores for transitions or interpretation than the former skater who actually does those things better.

    That just means that the judges need to work at doing a better job of judging each kind of skill independently.

    If the judges do a good job, and if the point values of the various elements and components are calibrated appropriately, then both skaters have a chance to win on any given occasion. It just depends how far they manage to excel in their areas of strength and how well they can avoid costly weaknesses in the other areas, and the balances in their performances will change from one competition to the next.

    I think the scale of values, the well-balanced program rules, and the judges' use of the PCS can still use a lot more fine-tuning.

    But I would hate to see them adjusted in a direction that by design will always only reward one kind of skater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schiele View Post
    I agree with Buttercup completely but I'll leave that argument aside for now.
    Janetfan, just simply consider this. Jeremy did attempt the quad in the long (and good on him for that) so it's not like he's avoiding risk taking and is punished for it. However, he fell all over the place with most of his jumps and with such a performance, do you think he was unfairly pushed off the lead? A 5 point difference between Jeremy's and Brian's PSC caused an unfairness in the final ranking of these skaters? Have you ever clearly (I'm underlying clearly) seen an instance where Brian was unfairly put up on the podium by inflating his PCS, although he failed to deliver technically? The only instance that comes to my mind, which may be questioned, is 2009 worlds, where Tomas might have been 3rd instead. But that is a close call.
    I can see you are yearning for Kwan type of skating and skaters, but these people are rare exceptions that can flower under any system. Take Lambiel for example, he shined both under 6.0 and IJS. And he was a perfect example of a skater model that Jeremy is inspiring at I believe.
    So frankly, I don't think the alleged "favoritism" is considerably affecting the end result very much at the end of the day. If skaters are clearly shining (either in Lambiel style or Joubert style, or any other style), they eventually get rewarded. Diversity is what makes this sport great and clearly lack of diversity is why the ladies field is suffering at the moment. (Just a small note at the end..)
    Thanks for your comments schiele. I hope it was clear that I was talking about their respective scores from the SP and not the LP.

    This might sound odd but I typically prefer Brian to Jeremy. I like Brian for most of the same things his fans do. I think he is good for skating and has had a successful career.

    Jeremy is a skater I don't really get behind because of his consistent inconsistency . I am a guy and if I want to see beautiful but inconsistent skating I would rather watch Alissa.

    But I value fairness in sports and I thought Jeremy's SP was not only so creative but bordered on dazzling. I think he might have seen many 6.0's under the old system - atleast for his presentation marks and possibly on his technical marks as well.

    Brian was very good too but no 6.0's for him as he made a mistake on his lutz and quite frankly his SP is far from original, just the same old, same old, that we have seen from him for years now.

    Is it necessary to reward Brian with such unrealistic pcs simply because he showed such improvement from TEB? That's all it looked like to me and I would have given him 5.8 for presentation marks. He was solid and good but nowhere near great. I repeat, Brian's SP was not great.

    Perhaps Jeremy's artistry and creativity - and daring to be different - are just not what CoP wants. For me, he earned 6.0's with that short and I can't budge on this because I saw it with my own eyes. I saw, as Jenny and many others did a difference in artistry that was scored unfairly - whether intentionally or not.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-10-2009 at 11:24 AM.

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    End subjectivity,reduce PCS, fix the COP! schiele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Thanks for your comments schiele. I hope it was clear that I was talking about their respective scores from the SP and not the LP.

    This might sound odd but I typically prefer Brian to Jeremy. I like Brian for most of the same things his fans do. I think he is good for skating and has had a successful career.

    Jeremy is a skater I don't really get behind because of his consistent inconsistency . I am a guy and if I want to see beautiful but inconsistent skating I would rather watch Alissa.

    But I value fairness in sports and I thought Jeremy's SP was not only so creative but bordered on dazzling. I think he might have seen many 6.0's under the old system - atleast for his presentation marks and possibly on his technical marks as well.

    Brian was very good too but no 6.0's for him as he made a mistake on his lutz and quite frankly his SP is far from original, just the same old, same old, that we have seen from him for years now.

    Is it necessary to reward Brian with such unrealistic pcs simply because he showed such improvement from TEB? That's all it looked like to me and I would have given him 5.8 for presentation marks. He was solid and good but nowhere near great. I repeat, Brian's SP was not great.

    Perhaps Jeremy's artistry and creativity - and daring to be different - are just not what CoP wants. For me, he earned 6.0's with that short and I can't budge on this because I saw it with my own eyes. I saw, as Jenny and many others did a difference in artistry that was scored unfairly - whether intentionally or not.
    Ok, I'll rewatch the short. I remember I quite liked Jeremy's SP programme (not the long) but haven't studied the scoring mismatch for the SP specifically. I was just making comments about the overall results. If we're talking about specific cases, I definetely agree that we can find cases of unfairness.
    But the feeling I am getting is that "Chan type" of skating is getting more and more recognition and enforcement, and we are seeing a clear movement in that direction. I just hope we don't end up with a single type of skating, thats all.
    Btw, while you're at "beautiful but inconsistent", you can always focus on Kiira!

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    Quote Originally Posted by schiele View Post
    Ok, I'll rewatch the short. I remember I quite liked Jeremy's SP programme (not the long) but haven't studied the scoring mismatch for the SP specifically. I was just making comments about the overall results. If we're talking about specific cases, I definetely agree that we can find cases of unfairness.
    But the feeling I am getting is that "Chan type" of skating is getting more and more recognition and enforcement, and we are seeing a clear movement in that direction. I just hope we don't end up with a single type of skating, thats all.
    Btw, while you're at "beautiful but inconsistent", you can always focus on Kiira!
    Ha-ha, yes I agree with you - but I happen to like Laura even better

    For me this is not about prefering one style over the other and I agree skating needs the diversity.

    But I don't know why they should keep music as part of the SP if a performance like Jeremy's is not going to be considered superior to what Brian did in the pcs.

    Like it or not, 6.0 rewarded beautifully skated, original programs much more than CoP seems to be willing to do. In fact, there are not very many terribly original programs this year, and skating to Jimi Hendrizx or wearing strange costumes is not what I am talking about.

    I simply think music interpretation and original choreo is disappearing because it is judged so poorly under CoP.

    If that area of CoP scoring were to be reconsidered it would be a major improvement imho.

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    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    who tries quad now when he knows he will fall for sure, with UR, fall and all how many points you get anymore, 4? Sorry I m lost with scores stuff and lazy to calculate.
    Fs is not just jumps as well as it is not only interpretation and transitions. But since you know quad it's been there already for 20 years it is puzzling that most men cannot do it now. It is like gymnastics, 2 and 2.5 yurchenko twists are great but once they start jumping triples it will be exciting for gymnastics world and like quad should be rewarded because it would take another different preparation for someone to do it. I dont think joub was rewarded falsely because he did a quad, if you look his program, he has confidence, he sells his performance and he has no fear and enjoys his skating while most looked like sheep before the butcher- and I m not even a joubert fan!

    It is not the one more turn around yourself, it is that it's a sport and like any when limits have been pushed it looks bad athletically. I know spins and footwork are also difficult but unless they stop giving 'hello to ice' as B once said and everyone starts spinning like Lambiel, I dont get that excited in spins that look mostly the same. And everyone has improved these areas but not jumps.
    Of course a program with quad falls look bad and a flawless program with triples and doubles can look dazzling, but so does an exhibition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    who tries quad now when he knows he will fall for sure, with UR, fall and all how many points you get anymore, 4? Sorry I m lost with scores stuff and lazy to calculate.
    Fs is not just jumps as well as it is not only interpretation and transitions. But since you know quad it's been there already for 20 years it is puzzling that most men cannot do it now. It is like gymnastics, 2 and 2.5 yurchenko twists are great but once they start jumping triples it will be exciting for gymnastics world and like quad should be rewarded because it would take another different preparation for someone to do it. I dont think joub was rewarded falsely because he did a quad, if you look his program, he has confidence, he sells his performance and he has no fear and enjoys his skating while most looked like sheep before the butcher- and I m not even a joubert fan!

    It is not the one more turn around yourself, it is that it's a sport and like any when limits have been pushed it looks bad athletically. I know spins and footwork are also difficult but unless they stop giving 'hello to ice' as B once said and everyone starts spinning like Lambiel, I dont get that excited in spins that look mostly the same. And everyone has improved these areas but not jumps.
    Of course a program with quad falls look bad and a flawless program with triples and doubles can look dazzling, but so does an exhibition.
    Glad you are feeling better seniorita. I agree with your opinions and particularly agree that Brian did a masterful job of selling his program. But I don't think what he was selling was terribly impressive and certainly nowhere near as original and artisitic as what Jeremy was selling.

    Is skating a beauty pageant or an athletic competition?

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    End subjectivity,reduce PCS, fix the COP! schiele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Glad you are feeling better seniorita. I agree with your opinions and particularly agree that Brian did a masterful job of selling his program. But I don't think what he was selling was terribly impressive and certainly nowhere near as original and artisitic as what Jeremy was selling.

    Is skating a beauty pageant or an athletic competition?
    I think we are all wishing it would be both!
    But I still argue Brian's athletism should not be underestimated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Do you honestly think Jeremy would have won the SP under 6.0?

    4-3 beats 3-3. That was the case under 6.0. If anything CoP puts Jeremy in closer contention than 6.0 could ever have.
    Earth to my friend Kunstrijdster (gosh your name is hard to spell )

    Brian made an obvious mistake and did not deserve any 6.0's for the tech marks. I felt his presentation was good, even very good.I would have given him 5.8's for his smile and hip thrust. But he wasn't close to a 6.0 for that type of presentation. The artistic content wasn't there imo.

    I would have scored them even in the first set of marks. Brian did a quad but made a mistake on his lutz.
    On the second set of marks I would give Jeremy 5,9's maybe 6.0.
    Brian I still say only earned 5,8's.
    That is how Jeremy would have won the SP. By simply skating better.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-10-2009 at 12:01 PM.

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    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Is skating a beauty pageant or an athletic competition?
    If you consider that I m a big fan of someone with a mullet that looks like spaghetti and a big nose, I would say it is an athletic competition, otherwise I would be Jouby fan :boohoo:
    Saying this Ifell in love with Kozuka's stare. If it wasnt for Plush i would have given him the gold in Rostel just like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schiele View Post
    I think we are all wishing it would be both!
    But I still argue Brian's athletism should not be underestimated.
    If he is so athletic then he should not have been a clutz and done a better lutz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Brian made an obvious msitake and did not deserve any 6.0's for the tech marks. I felt his presentation was good, even very good.I would have given him 5.8's for his smile and hip thrust. But he wasn't close to a 6.0 for that type of presentation? The artistic content wasn't there imo.


    Let's say I agree with you theoretically. But let's talk reality. Would 6.0 judges have given Jeremy 1st in the SP?

    Would they have given him any 6.0s. 6.0 judges used the marks to place the skater in a certain order. In order for their intentions and marks to match they had to save marks and they often had to award marks that did not reflect the tech or presentation but did enable them to place the skaters in the desired order.
    Good point which is exactly why it is the same way in CoP. Skating in the lower groups is every bit as difficult from what I see. Check out Aliss'as LP last year at Worlds. After she fell into the second group she was toast and was not scored as well had she been in the final group.

    When I get down on CoP it is because i see so many of the same problems from 6.0 are still there. Scoring by repututation seems to be no better and possibly worse imo.

    And yes, having watched many years of 6.0 I think Jeremy would have received them for his SP. I don't think Brian would have. Just my opinion and maybe I am wrong.

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