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Thread: Free Dance IN broadcast Nov. 7th 11:00 PM EST

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    That's exactly one of my many problems with D/W, and I have a lot of problems with them, a LOT. however, they've improved since last season. Unfortunately i feel they are now Igor's favorite team. Oh well, not entirely unexpected, i mean, he needs a team to push b/a off the top spot at Nationals, I can picture them squashing V/M and B/A at GPF
    They may be Igor's favorite team, but I think V/M are Marina's favorite.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    With the caveat that I couldn't watch NHK, I have to wonder, can those GOEs and extremely high PCS be warranted? When I see them skate, I usually see a very fast and technically strong team, but like lakeshore, they often look sloppy to me, and their speed doesn't always make their skating look better - sometimes it just looks uncontrolled and almost frantic. I also don't find them as strong as some teams when it comes to musical expression.
    They were good today.

    The Kerrs are sloppy too.

    What else is there to say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    I can picture them squashing V/M
    I can't!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I With the caveat that I couldn't watch NHK, I have to wonder, can those GOEs and extremely high PCS be warranted? :
    I rarely watch ice dancing. I found today's ice dancing is so different than, let's say, Grishuk & Platov era. You always had those beautiful dancers with long lines doing dance. I mean the world champions these days? Albena & Maxim ? The French? The Russians? Well, all these pairs are very strangely built and terribly mismatched. I just don't get it.

    Just compare Grishuk & Platov's Libertango with Albena & Maxim', the gap is day and night.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mVexkUXy3U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv8DD1hCvdg

  4. #34
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsuhs View Post
    They were good today.

    The Kerrs are sloppy too.

    What else is there to say?
    I didn't compare them to the Kerrs or question the placements. I asked whether D/W's very high marks were warranted.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    I can picture them squashing V/M and B/A at GPF
    I can't see this happening either.

    Though I do believe that they could very well win the OD over V/M and B/A this year- if they skate well. The judges really, reallly like their OD- rightfully so.

    GPF is going to be an extremely interesting competition this year if all teams show up healthy. Then we'll really see if D/W's scores hold up under head to head competition- I somehow don't think they will.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I asked whether D/W's very high marks were warranted.
    Yes they were. Is that the right answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakeshore View Post
    Just compare Grishuk & Platov's Libertango with Albena & Maxim', the gap is day and night.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mVexkUXy3U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv8DD1hCvdg
    But 6.0 and CoP are incomparable. Or so they say.
    Last edited by Hsuhs; 11-08-2009 at 01:12 AM.

  7. #37
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    Congrats to Meryl and Charlie. I am so pleased for them.

    Their marks today are in line with the marks from Rostelecom Cup. This is the third competition with similar scores so it isn't a flash in the pan!

    I enjoy their POTO. The performance is over in a flash, while some of the dances tonight seemed to drag on forever.

    Also congrats to the Kerrs. They are a joy to watch and it is nice they are being rewarded by the judges this year.

  8. #38
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    D/W are fabulous. They just keep getting those gold medals around their necks, don't they? Three different ISU judging panels have all been right in line with each other, they are definitely getting the scores this season. And they deserve it.

    I have loved this team for a while now and I'm just so pleased things are paying off for them, as Charlie said.

    Love that the Japanese audience appreciated them, I know it must have been such fun to skate to that applause! Congrats to the Kerrs, too, they obviously have a great fan base here.

    I have loved D/W's FD since the beginning, I loved it very much here..such a passionate performance.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I didn't compare them to the Kerrs or question the placements. I asked whether D/W's very high marks were warranted.
    I get where Buttercup is coming from. Her question seems similar to the Kim Yu-Na and Evgeny Plushenko conversations. She (and others) aren't questioning D&W's win (I think that was a forgone conclusion as soon as DomShabs withdrew) but the point spread.

    I am not the most objective person when it comes to K&K and when they are "on" I've always thought they had pretty decent skating skills. I expect them to pick up +GOE points in the second mark; if they skate their FD well I expect their PCS marks to be a little bit higher. I realize that at NHK they weren't completely "on." However, I've read posts in which people have said that Sinead and John's skating skills/technique are as good as they could be.

    I need to try and watch their programs paying attention to only the quality of their skating and required elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by missysays View Post
    I can't see this happening either.

    Though I do believe that they could very well win the OD over V/M and B/A this year- if they skate well. The judges really, reallly like their OD- rightfully so.

    GPF is going to be an extremely interesting competition this year if all teams show up healthy. Then we'll really see if D/W's scores hold up under head to head competition- I somehow don't think they will.
    Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part being a bigger V&M and B&A fan than D&W fan, but I don't think the GP scores will hold up once all the top teams meet either.

    I'm trying not to put too much thought into it though because all the different scenarios as to why which team is getting which marks is starting to make my head spin. It's possible the judges have promoted D&W to top NA team but OTOH it's possible that the judges are judging the winning dance teams against the field those skaters are competing against (as I believe they tend to do). And there are probably many scenarios in between.

    I agree that the OD is/will be D&W's biggest strength once they begin to face the rest of the top teams. I do think they could beat V&M and B&A in this portion but IMHO unless the other two teams make huge mistakes or have shaky tentative performances I would still give V&M and B&A the nod in the CD and FD.

    I think even with the OD people are reacting to what they might feel is a more interesting choice of program especially since many teams went with the tried and true folk and country dances.

    However the judges are supposed to judge each team on how well that team interprets the rhythm they did chose, the difficulty in those programs and how well the content was performed. Of course once again trying to second guess the judges is tricky as they could react positively as the fans have to D&W having chosen something different from what the majority of the teams in the top teams are skating to.

  10. #40
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    Wow, controversy in an ice dance thread! Perish the thought! Yes, D/Ws marks are very high, but against teams arguably not quite on their level. K/K are very entertaining and always crowd-favourites , but there are clear weaknesses to their skating such as partnering or twizzles. And the judges for whatever reason just don't see them as a top team yet.

    What does seem clear is that D/Ws OD in particular is really a hit. And why not? It's great. I personally would HATE if they suddenly started winning against the big guns with this dreadful, dreadful Phanton FD. Don't get me wrong, they skate it as well as can be skated, but the material they were given is just absolutely unworthy of a team of their caliber IMO. And they had two of my favourite FDs with Eleanor Rigby and Samson and Delilah...it figures that they would finally start winning stuff with one I hate. Sigh.

  11. #41
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    I didn't mean to imply that K&K should have beaten D&W in the FD. I do think that there are some areas in Sinead and John's skating in which they should be picking up a few extra points in "if" they skate well.

    katha, I agree with your opinion regarding D&W's FD. As much as I'm rooting more for DelShoes, V&M and B&A, I wouldn't bat an eye if D&W had another FD on the same level as Eleanor Rigby or Samsom & Delilah and they beat those teams. It was due to those two programs that I began to see what others did in this team.

    Everytime I watch W&P's POTO I can't help but think that was the program I expected D&W to have after what they've skated to the last two seasons.

  12. #42
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I've only been able to watch D&W and K&K in the FD so far. However, here's several reasons why D&W score well vs. the Kerrs:

    The numbers here are the judges' numbers, not mine.

    TES
    1. Their dance spin enters from a back edge, which is much harder. Their rotations are extremely fast. Their slo mo of the spinis faster than many teams normal speed. I find myself watching pair teams thinking why can't you do a pair spin like D&W. Kerrs have a pretty good spin, too.
    D&W spin: 5.8
    Kerrs spin: 5.4

    2. The lifts have amazing transitions and complexity, including surprising changes of direction. Two of the 3 lifts are new to them this year. The first lift with the unexpected uprise of Meryl is amazing. That lift is getting GOE's of 3 from the judges. Furthermore, the changes from position to positions are smooth and fluid. In the case of the final rotational lift, it's pretty stock. But it's amazingly fast and gets a ton of rotations in before the time runs out. And more rotations = better GOE. The Kerrs are still using lifts from the stock book of level 4 lifts-the lift with Sinead laid out is the same as one F&S do, for example. And they have been using the handstand lift for years. Also, AFAIK, there are no extra points for the girl lifting the guy. And his leg line in the air gets graded.

    D&W lifts (3 of them) 21.3
    K&K lifts (3 of them) 20.0

    3. Twizzles. In this competition, both teams had a slight problem with the twizzles. D&W were short some revs on one of the two sets of twizzles. This is why their score in the FD wasn't quite up to their CoR score. K&K had a noticeable form break, and were even shorter on revs.

    D&W (level 3) 5.6
    K&K (level 2 and GOE was negative) 3.7

    4. Steps. You get the levels by having depth of edge in every turn.. As a result, D&W got level 3 in both step sequences while K&K only got level 2 in the diagonal step.
    D&W (2 sequences) 16.8
    K&K (2 sequences, one lev 2) 14.2

    So as a result, the TES for D&W is 49.50 and for K&K is 43.0.

    PCS is very, very subjective, but all the numbers seem to reference off skating skills. And the skating skills grade is very driven by:
    0. Speed, speed, speed. D&W are wicked fast in everything they do. This doesn't show up well on TV, but watch how the lettering on the boards is a blur as they skate by. This, by the way, was what Grishuk and Platov had over their competition, too. It's not a new concept to COP.
    1. As to Performance and Choreo, those would be the marks that most of the criticisms of D&W you make would be aimed at, and you could make a case that they are overscored on those marks. However, recall that it is how the performance and choreography are perceived in the ice rink that is scored, not how they look in slo mo on the TV. Both teams got standing O's from the audience. I'd give them similar marks with an edge to the Kerrs. However, like it or not, the judges seem to index off the skating skills, and the argument would be if K&K and D&W were equal in choreo and interp, then the team that managed to be equal at higher speed had to be a better team to do that. So the judges' marks are defensible.
    2. Timing/interpretation- I never comment on global timing from IN video because the audio sn't always synch-ed well to the video. However, when you have a technical error that's visible, as the Kerrs did on 2 elements, it also produces a timing problem at that step too. And again, when 2 teams have equal timing, the faster team gets higher marks.
    3. Linking footwork/movement. Offhand I don't recall the definitions here, but again, if 2 teams are equal, faster team gets higher score.

    So that's why.

    For me, I like D&W's FD all the way up to the end of Music of the Night-the last part with the phantom chasing Christine doesn't thrill me, but I can see the point of it. I hope they will do something more with it before we see it again.

    I already think they improved the first part of the dance to the point where I like it. Maybe I would change the lift where Meryl stands on Charlie's leg a bit so it hits a more attractive position-it's a little better this outing, but still needs something, I think.

    In the 2nd part, I'd like a better/different transition to the second part for one thing.

    And I'd echo the sentiment that these scores will have nothing to do with the GPF scores. However, the fact that the OD is skated first will have something to do with it, and the fact that D&W will be in the top3 group to skate this year (whether they skate last there will be dependent on tie breakers. And there is no CD. And D&W's OD is complex, and awesome, and meets the requirement that every element and move should show the character of the dance, rather than just being the move they always do better than any other team's OD we have seen yet does. If they win the OD, they get to skate last in the FD. At which point, it will be interesting to see what happens.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-08-2009 at 03:31 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    ^

    Entire post

    Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to share this info. I'm going to go back & watch these 2 FD's again. You rock!

  14. #44
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Thanks, Doris - that was really informative, and while it won't turn me into a D/W fan, it's good to understand what other people are seeing that I'm not...

  15. #45
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    Thanks everyone for the detailed explanations and comments!
    I won’t pretend I know nearly enough about ice dance to cry favoritism and PCS boost.
    To my layman eyes, D/W were deserving winners, but I’m not a fan. Like others commented, their speed is too much for me. I prefer the slower parts of their program (their gala is lovely!). This FD in particular … it’s as if they are trying to remove a colony of fire ants from each other .

    Most importantly, yay for the Kerrs for winning first silver in a GP!
    Yes, I am a fan. They are always interesting and unique – programs and music selection.
    Does this mean they’ll go to the GPF? Did anyone do the math?

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