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Thread: Free Dance IN broadcast Nov. 7th 11:00 PM EST

  1. #46
    Ice Dancing and Johnny Fan MissIzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danale View Post
    Most importantly, yay for the Kerrs for winning first silver in a GP!
    Yes, I am a fan. They are always interesting and unique – programs and music selection.
    Does this mean they’ll go to the GPF? Did anyone do the math?
    I'll do the math as I type here(I'm having way too much fun doing this, pity it's almost over):

    Kerrs are currently in second in the overall standings with a score total of 354.84. To not make the Grand Prix Finale, five teams would need to to pass them. There are currently eight teams that can do so:

    Belbin & Agosto and Virtue & Moir: Will persumably win Skate America and Skate Canada respectively, and hope for free dance scores of over 100 when they do...

    Khokhlova & Novitski and Cappellini & Lanotte: Both competing at Skate America, both would pass them if they won silver. To pass them with bronze, K&N would need a score of 174.27, easily attainable for them, while C&L would need 186.27, which would be for difficult for them. It seems likely K&N will take the silver and C&L will come in behind the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker.

    Pechelat & Bourzat and Faiella & Scali: Competing against each other for silver at Skate Canada, which F&S must win in order to still be in the race. To get ahead of the Kerrs, F&S would also have to score 174.92, and their Cup of China score leaves them with a good five points to spare. Pechelat & Bourzat would go ahead automatically with silver; with bronze they'd need 173.20, which I think they can manage since it's well below their TEB score. While they scored more at TEB then F&S scores at CoC, it's only a two point difference, not enough to say with any certainty what will happen at SC.

    Boborva & Soloviev and Samuelson & Bates: Would both need to win Skate Canada, and since it is not possible have two winners, reduce number of teams that can pass the Kerrs to seven.

    It is of course unlikely that either B&S or S&B will win Skate Canada, but even then there's six teams to pass the Kerrs. Eliminate C&L as unlikely due to the score tiebreaker and it's five. But here it goes down to the wire, because it F&S get silver and P&B bronze at SC, it seems very likely they will both go ahead of the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker, and it seems equally likely that all three of B&A, V&M, and K&N will go ahead on their medals. In order for the Kerrs to make the Grand Prix Finale, P&B must beat F&S. And I don't think there's any telling whether they'll do that or not.

  2. #47
    Dedicated follower of the black line Wicked's Avatar
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    Doris, you just took me to school. Thank you.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissIzzy View Post
    I'll do the math as I type here(I'm having way too much fun doing this, pity it's almost over):

    Kerrs are currently in second in the overall standings with a score total of 354.84. To not make the Grand Prix Finale, five teams would need to to pass them. There are currently eight teams that can do so:

    Belbin & Agosto and Virtue & Moir: Will persumably win Skate America and Skate Canada respectively, and hope for free dance scores of over 100 when they do...

    Khokhlova & Novitski and Cappellini & Lanotte: Both competing at Skate America, both would pass them if they won silver. To pass them with bronze, K&N would need a score of 174.27, easily attainable for them, while C&L would need 186.27, which would be for difficult for them. It seems likely K&N will take the silver and C&L will come in behind the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker.

    Pechelat & Bourzat and Faiella & Scali: Competing against each other for silver at Skate Canada, which F&S must win in order to still be in the race. To get ahead of the Kerrs, F&S would also have to score 174.92, and their Cup of China score leaves them with a good five points to spare. Pechelat & Bourzat would go ahead automatically with silver; with bronze they'd need 173.20, which I think they can manage since it's well below their TEB score. While they scored more at TEB then F&S scores at CoC, it's only a two point difference, not enough to say with any certainty what will happen at SC.

    Boborva & Soloviev and Samuelson & Bates: Would both need to win Skate Canada, and since it is not possible have two winners, reduce number of teams that can pass the Kerrs to seven.

    It is of course unlikely that either B&S or S&B will win Skate Canada, but even then there's six teams to pass the Kerrs. Eliminate C&L as unlikely due to the score tiebreaker and it's five. But here it goes down to the wire, because it F&S get silver and P&B bronze at SC, it seems very likely they will both go ahead of the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker, and it seems equally likely that all three of B&A, V&M, and K&N will go ahead on their medals. In order for the Kerrs to make the Grand Prix Finale, P&B must beat F&S. And I don't think there's any telling whether they'll do that or not.
    Wow! What a scenario evaluation. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissIzzy View Post
    Entire post and math
    I am in awe Thank you!
    And now I have one more reason to hope that P/B win silver in SC over F/S

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissIzzy View Post
    Whole post.
    I don't have the patience to do all that Math! Good job and thank you!

    So far, the only discipline that has pretty much been going to form is Dance (when has it NOT gone to form? ) Can't wait for the GPF; that will be one exciting showdown!

    Happy for the Kerrs and D/W!! I love the Kerrs and would be if they made it to the GPF. Personally, I don't think F&S will beat P&B at SC but it has been one heck of a topsy turvy season! We'll see but I expect B/A and V/M to comfortably win their events. If they lose that would be a greater shock imo than Mao off the podim at CoR and Joannie not winning CoC.

    I'm still not a fan of D/W's POTO FD ... I wish the transition from the POTO main theme to Music of The Night and back again wasn't so jarring. I loved Eleanor Rigby and Samson and Delilah ... hopefully I'll love this one by the end of the season. Why oh why can't they have W/P's cuts!

    Thanks to Doris for the explanation!

    Off topic: I love D/W's OD and can see why people might find it more interesting. While I understand that V/M's Flamenco isn't as outstanding (Not that I mind, I really CANNOT imagine them doing an Oriental dance and passionate + smexy Scott is something they sell darn well imo!), why isn't B/A's Moldavian Dance regarded as unusual? Don't remember other teams doing it before.
    But anyway, all I care about is that the teams properly interpret and sell their dance. And that they get REWARDED appropriately for it.

    Yaye on to SA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I didn't compare them to the Kerrs or question the placements. I asked whether D/W's very high marks were warranted.

    they are not. Simply put, 4 minutes of displaying how fast they can string all their well executed tricks together. Just a headscratcher. When they do their footwork sequences, there is no variation to the dance holds, and they are not close enough together.

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    D/W have many difficult lifts in this season's programs. The one that fascinates me is the final lift in their OD. Meryl flips her body around with Charlie's help. It looks like it would be hard to do. I guess the fact that she is light makes it easier. Although the ending doesn't always look completely smooth, I love watching it.

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    1. doris, thanks for your insightful post. I have one question, though.

    02. The lifts have amazing transitions and complexity, including surprising changes of direction. Two of the 3 lifts are new to them this year. The first lift with the unexpected uprise of Meryl is amazing. That lift is getting GOE's of 3 from the judges. Furthermore, the changes from position to positions are smooth and fluid. In the case of the final rotational lift, it's pretty stock. But it's amazingly fast and gets a ton of rotations in before the time runs out. And more rotations = better GOE. The Kerrs are still using lifts from the stock book of level 4 lifts-the lift with Sinead laid out is the same as one F&S do, for example. And they have been using the handstand lift for years. Also, AFAIK, there are no extra points for the girl lifting the guy. And his leg line in the air gets graded.
    Where would it be graded? As a fourth lift, it's not a GOE element but considered a transition. Do they mark it there, or just overall in the PCS?

    I'm a little surprised to see the enmity directed towards D/W's FD. While I still take issue with the first lift (it's fast and everything, but the positions aren't held or particularly pleasing to thine eye), I definitely lovely how they're performing it (such an athletic team). They need to work on the details (compare to their OD, which is simply jam-packed with detail work), but frankly, the farther away from POTO it gets, the happier I am. I could watch that straight line lift all day.

    One more thing - the audience was clapping throughout the last third of D/W's program despite the fact that it's not music that is easy to clap to. Just gives you an idea of how strong their projection is.

    As for the Kerrs, I'm finally enjoying them this season. One thing worth noting is that C/P were only two points behind them in the free, and that's with a level one on the second half the combo lift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
    :Off topic: I love D/W's OD and can see why people might find it more interesting. While I understand that V/M's Flamenco isn't as outstanding (Not that I mind, I really CANNOT imagine them doing an Oriental dance and passionate + smexy Scott is something they sell darn well imo!), why isn't B/A's Moldavian Dance regarded as unusual? Don't remember other teams doing it before.
    But anyway, all I care about is that the teams properly interpret and sell their dance. And that they get REWARDED appropriately for it.

    Yaye on to SA!
    I think Shpilband-Zueva top teams have best ODs in this season (from what i aws)/
    I think V-M OD is 100% best OD. And its unusual flamenco, that greate. They show a lot off passion, power,/ Its mpst difficult OD/

    I love Shibutanies power in there OD . And i enjoy humor in D-W OD and Meryl face work in this dance and all this small moves.
    As for B-A.... All Linichuck work look for me like old dances from 80th. And this moldavian music maby Moiseev used in 60th. And there FD look old. But Tanith and Ben are good skaters. I wish them good luck in this season.

  10. #55
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herios View Post
    they are not. Simply put, 4 minutes of displaying how fast they can string all their well executed tricks together. Just a headscratcher. When they do their footwork sequences, there is no variation to the dance holds, and they are not close enough together.
    Note that my remarks are directed to D&W vs. K&K, not vs. V&M. However, here's what the 2009-2010 ISU guidelines for dance tell you goes into the GOE for step sequences (p. 27):
    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1442

    STEP SEQUENCES

    Pattern/Placement incorrect or incomplete 1 grade

    More than two arms length between partners (Non-touching sequence) 1 grade

    Inclusion of not permitted element/movement- e.g. stop, jump more than ½ rev. (per each) 1 grade

    Skating in Hand-in–Hand hold in sustained position with fully extended arms (in hold) 1 grade

    Separation to change a hold exceeds one measure of music 1 grade

    Step Sequence does not reflect the character of the chosen dance (OD) 1 grade

    Step Sequence is not skated to the rhythm pattern of the music ( OD & FD) GOE in minus

    Lack of flow (movement across the ice) GOE in minus

    Increase GOE by 1 grade for each of the following difficult characteristics:
    Reflection of the rhythm pattern (OD & FD) and character of the dance (OD)
    Skating with good speed and flow
    Fast movement across the ice
    Actually, close holds and close skating are not particularly rewarded in the current version of ISU Communication 1567 in guidelines for step sequences. However, speed and flow across the ice is worth a point in GOE.

    So I would argue that D&W's TES are completely justified.

    The place to ding D&W for this stuff would be somewhere in the PCS.
    And for better or worse, PCS components have been linked as incremental bumps to speed since Grishuk's days (when it was the single 6.0 presentation mark). T&D skated much closer together, but speed won the day in 1994. And speed has ruled ever since. These days, the line item most related to speed is Skating Skills.

    So let's check how PCS components are graded in dance for FD and OD: From Communication 1522, pp 33-34:

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1016

    PCS components in the 9.0 to 8.25 region, which is where D&W score:

    Note holds are not mentioned

    Skating Skills (note holds are not mentioned)
    - strong, sure, fluid edges
    - supple knee action
    - stylish, precise, interesting & neat
    steps/turns
    - ease in accelerating even during
    difficult steps
    - always multidirectional
    - broad skill range for both,
    Linking Footwork
    Again what they do is offset by 'superior ice coverage' = speed.

    - difficult, varied, sequences of
    edges/steps/turns/holds for both
    throughout
    - one move flows easily into the next
    - superior ice coverage
    Performance.
    This is one place where D&W could be dinged, but their Projection is excellent. And it is the effortlessness of change of holds as well as their relative difficulty that is required for the grade, not the closeness that is explicitly called out. But the way judging is done, if you gave them 9 for SS, you might drop them to 8 for Perf if their holds deeply offend you. And that would be counteracted by the fact that their projection (and for that matter those of the Kerrs) is excellent.

    - coordinated movements- excellent
    matching
    - superb carriage & lines
    - effortless change of difficult holds
    - project strongly
    OK, let's look at Interpretation
    Nothing about holds:
    - skaters and music meld – internal
    motivation
    - very good range of interesting
    movements/gestures
    - excellent ability to relate as one to
    reflect rhythm of music
    Choreography
    No holds here

    - superior choreography-clearly
    understandable
    - variety of innovative moves that
    develop theme
    - change of pace/tempo incorporated
    with ease
    - excellent use of music /space
    /symmetry
    Timing:
    - -skaters and music meld – internal
    motivation
    - very good range of interesting
    movements/gestures
    - excellent ability to relate as one to
    reflect music/theme
    - excellent and understandable
    expression of the music’s style and
    character
    - timing: 100% correct as above
    - music selection: 100% as above
    So the only place to ding a couple about their holds is in performance. And the measure of closeness that is objectionable is not particularly strictly spelled out either. As the current communications are written close skating and different holds are not adequately rewarded.

    That's the fault of the ISU, not D&W. And it's been true, as I said before since Grishuk and Platov won their first OGM.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. doris, thanks for your insightful post. I have one question, though.
    Where would it be graded? As a fourth lift, it's not a GOE element but considered a transition. Do they mark it there, or just overall in the PCS? .
    If it's the fourth lift, it would show up in parts of the PCS-transitions, choreo, etc. If it's one of the 3 lifts it would be graded the same as if the guy lifted the girl. So the better choice is to make it a fourth lift.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-08-2009 at 02:38 PM.

  11. #56
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    Doris,
    Thank you for your posts. I have always loved skating but have never really followed ice dancing. D/W have drawn me in. I loved last season's FD and enjoy this season's as well. Your posts are very helpful in understanding the "nuts and bolts" of ice dancing and scoring. Again, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by herios View Post
    they are not. Simply put, 4 minutes of displaying how fast they can string all their well executed tricks together. Just a headscratcher. When they do their footwork sequences, there is no variation to the dance holds, and they are not close enough together.
    Well, saying D&W's scores are not "warranted" is ridiculous when three different judging panels have given them high scores. I think Doris Pulaski has done a great job in explaining what the judges and tech specialists look for in a program according to ISU rules. If you can do great difficulty with great speed whether its in singles, pairs or dance, you will get great scores.

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    Skating Skills is not just about speed, it should be effortless whilst maintain good flow and a fast travel. And of course quiet deep edges. Grishuk & Domnina- both ladies have that nice quality, really beautiful technique.

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    Well, Crone and Poirier have my favourite FD of the season. Obviously their dance skills don't yet put them at the top of the pack, but in terms of the choreography and how it goes to the music and all the beautiful details — this is a program I will look forward to watching in every competition I can see it. So far, this choreo has stood out the most for me this season.

    I think Davis and White are terrific. I just can't quite get past the Phantom of the Opera music selection. Just a personal bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
    .....
    Off topic: I love D/W's OD and can see why people might find it more interesting. While I understand that V/M's Flamenco isn't as outstanding (Not that I mind, I really CANNOT imagine them doing an Oriental dance and passionate + smexy Scott is something they sell darn well imo!), why isn't B/A's Moldavian Dance regarded as unusual? Don't remember other teams doing it before. But anyway, all I care about is that the teams properly interpret and sell their dance. And that they get REWARDED appropriately for it.

    Yaye on to SA!
    I think the reason some people might tend to lump B&A's OD in the group of "just another folk dance" might be because to the untrained eye Tanith and Ben's Moldavian dance looks close enough to what people expect to see from a "European" folk dance with the music and costumes that they don't realize there is a difference. Just a guess on my part.

    I don't think it is just another folk dance and it suits Tanith and Ben perfectly. I also feel as if B&A's OD is a great contrast to their gorgeous FD.

    Last year I would have said that P&B would definitely come ahead of F&S whenever they met but F&S's programs are really strong this year. I love both teams though; for me it's one of those situations in which I don't know who I want to finish ahead. Although if P&B winning the silver results in the Kerr's going to the GPF I may have to root for Nathalie and Fabian.

    Doris. eta: Props to MissIzzy as well.
    Last edited by Dyan; 11-08-2009 at 10:18 PM.

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