Free Dance IN broadcast Nov. 7th 11:00 PM EST | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Free Dance IN broadcast Nov. 7th 11:00 PM EST

Dyan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
I didn't mean to imply that K&K should have beaten D&W in the FD. I do think that there are some areas in Sinead and John's skating in which they should be picking up a few extra points in "if" they skate well.

katha, I agree with your opinion regarding D&W's FD. As much as I'm rooting more for DelShoes, V&M and B&A, I wouldn't bat an eye if D&W had another FD on the same level as Eleanor Rigby or Samsom & Delilah and they beat those teams. It was due to those two programs that I began to see what others did in this team.

Everytime I watch W&P's POTO I can't help but think that was the program I expected D&W to have after what they've skated to the last two seasons.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I've only been able to watch D&W and K&K in the FD so far. However, here's several reasons why D&W score well vs. the Kerrs:

The numbers here are the judges' numbers, not mine.

TES
1. Their dance spin enters from a back edge, which is much harder. Their rotations are extremely fast. Their slo mo of the spinis faster than many teams normal speed. I find myself watching pair teams thinking why can't you do a pair spin like D&W. Kerrs have a pretty good spin, too.
D&W spin: 5.8
Kerrs spin: 5.4

2. The lifts have amazing transitions and complexity, including surprising changes of direction. Two of the 3 lifts are new to them this year. The first lift with the unexpected uprise of Meryl is amazing. That lift is getting GOE's of 3 from the judges. Furthermore, the changes from position to positions are smooth and fluid. In the case of the final rotational lift, it's pretty stock. But it's amazingly fast and gets a ton of rotations in before the time runs out. And more rotations = better GOE. The Kerrs are still using lifts from the stock book of level 4 lifts-the lift with Sinead laid out is the same as one F&S do, for example. And they have been using the handstand lift for years. Also, AFAIK, there are no extra points for the girl lifting the guy. And his leg line in the air gets graded.

D&W lifts (3 of them) 21.3
K&K lifts (3 of them) 20.0

3. Twizzles. In this competition, both teams had a slight problem with the twizzles. D&W were short some revs on one of the two sets of twizzles. This is why their score in the FD wasn't quite up to their CoR score. K&K had a noticeable form break, and were even shorter on revs.

D&W (level 3) 5.6
K&K (level 2 and GOE was negative) 3.7

4. Steps. You get the levels by having depth of edge in every turn.. As a result, D&W got level 3 in both step sequences while K&K only got level 2 in the diagonal step.
D&W (2 sequences) 16.8
K&K (2 sequences, one lev 2) 14.2

So as a result, the TES for D&W is 49.50 and for K&K is 43.0.

PCS is very, very subjective, but all the numbers seem to reference off skating skills. And the skating skills grade is very driven by:
0. Speed, speed, speed. D&W are wicked fast in everything they do. This doesn't show up well on TV, but watch how the lettering on the boards is a blur as they skate by. This, by the way, was what Grishuk and Platov had over their competition, too. It's not a new concept to COP.
1. As to Performance and Choreo, those would be the marks that most of the criticisms of D&W you make would be aimed at, and you could make a case that they are overscored on those marks. However, recall that it is how the performance and choreography are perceived in the ice rink that is scored, not how they look in slo mo on the TV. Both teams got standing O's from the audience. I'd give them similar marks with an edge to the Kerrs. However, like it or not, the judges seem to index off the skating skills, and the argument would be if K&K and D&W were equal in choreo and interp, then the team that managed to be equal at higher speed had to be a better team to do that. So the judges' marks are defensible.
2. Timing/interpretation- I never comment on global timing from IN video because the audio sn't always synch-ed well to the video. However, when you have a technical error that's visible, as the Kerrs did on 2 elements, it also produces a timing problem at that step too. And again, when 2 teams have equal timing, the faster team gets higher marks.
3. Linking footwork/movement. Offhand I don't recall the definitions here, but again, if 2 teams are equal, faster team gets higher score.

So that's why.

For me, I like D&W's FD all the way up to the end of Music of the Night-the last part with the phantom chasing Christine doesn't thrill me, but I can see the point of it. I hope they will do something more with it before we see it again.

I already think they improved the first part of the dance to the point where I like it. Maybe I would change the lift where Meryl stands on Charlie's leg a bit so it hits a more attractive position-it's a little better this outing, but still needs something, I think.

In the 2nd part, I'd like a better/different transition to the second part for one thing.

And I'd echo the sentiment that these scores will have nothing to do with the GPF scores. However, the fact that the OD is skated first will have something to do with it, and the fact that D&W will be in the top3 group to skate this year (whether they skate last there will be dependent on tie breakers. And there is no CD. And D&W's OD is complex, and awesome, and meets the requirement that every element and move should show the character of the dance, rather than just being the move they always do better than any other team's OD we have seen yet does. If they win the OD, they get to skate last in the FD. At which point, it will be interesting to see what happens.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Thanks, Doris - that was really informative, and while it won't turn me into a D/W fan, it's good to understand what other people are seeing that I'm not... :cool:
 

Danale

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Thanks everyone for the detailed explanations and comments!
I won’t pretend I know nearly enough about ice dance to cry favoritism and PCS boost.
To my layman eyes, D/W were deserving winners, but I’m not a fan. Like others commented, their speed is too much for me. I prefer the slower parts of their program (their gala is lovely!). This FD in particular … it’s as if they are trying to remove a colony of fire ants from each other :p.

Most importantly, yay for the Kerrs for winning first silver in a GP! :clap::clap::clap:
Yes, I am a fan. They are always interesting and unique – programs and music selection.
Does this mean they’ll go to the GPF? Did anyone do the math?
 

MissIzzy

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Most importantly, yay for the Kerrs for winning first silver in a GP! :clap::clap::clap:
Yes, I am a fan. They are always interesting and unique – programs and music selection.
Does this mean they’ll go to the GPF? Did anyone do the math?

I'll do the math as I type here(I'm having way too much fun doing this, pity it's almost over):

Kerrs are currently in second in the overall standings with a score total of 354.84. To not make the Grand Prix Finale, five teams would need to to pass them. There are currently eight teams that can do so:

Belbin & Agosto and Virtue & Moir: Will persumably win Skate America and Skate Canada respectively, and hope for free dance scores of over 100 when they do...

Khokhlova & Novitski and Cappellini & Lanotte: Both competing at Skate America, both would pass them if they won silver. To pass them with bronze, K&N would need a score of 174.27, easily attainable for them, while C&L would need 186.27, which would be for difficult for them. It seems likely K&N will take the silver and C&L will come in behind the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker.

Pechelat & Bourzat and Faiella & Scali: Competing against each other for silver at Skate Canada, which F&S must win in order to still be in the race. To get ahead of the Kerrs, F&S would also have to score 174.92, and their Cup of China score leaves them with a good five points to spare. Pechelat & Bourzat would go ahead automatically with silver; with bronze they'd need 173.20, which I think they can manage since it's well below their TEB score. While they scored more at TEB then F&S scores at CoC, it's only a two point difference, not enough to say with any certainty what will happen at SC.

Boborva & Soloviev and Samuelson & Bates: Would both need to win Skate Canada, and since it is not possible have two winners, reduce number of teams that can pass the Kerrs to seven.

It is of course unlikely that either B&S or S&B will win Skate Canada, but even then there's six teams to pass the Kerrs. Eliminate C&L as unlikely due to the score tiebreaker and it's five. But here it goes down to the wire, because it F&S get silver and P&B bronze at SC, it seems very likely they will both go ahead of the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker, and it seems equally likely that all three of B&A, V&M, and K&N will go ahead on their medals. In order for the Kerrs to make the Grand Prix Finale, P&B must beat F&S. And I don't think there's any telling whether they'll do that or not.
 

sfgirl

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I'll do the math as I type here(I'm having way too much fun doing this, pity it's almost over):

Kerrs are currently in second in the overall standings with a score total of 354.84. To not make the Grand Prix Finale, five teams would need to to pass them. There are currently eight teams that can do so:

Belbin & Agosto and Virtue & Moir: Will persumably win Skate America and Skate Canada respectively, and hope for free dance scores of over 100 when they do...

Khokhlova & Novitski and Cappellini & Lanotte: Both competing at Skate America, both would pass them if they won silver. To pass them with bronze, K&N would need a score of 174.27, easily attainable for them, while C&L would need 186.27, which would be for difficult for them. It seems likely K&N will take the silver and C&L will come in behind the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker.

Pechelat & Bourzat and Faiella & Scali: Competing against each other for silver at Skate Canada, which F&S must win in order to still be in the race. To get ahead of the Kerrs, F&S would also have to score 174.92, and their Cup of China score leaves them with a good five points to spare. Pechelat & Bourzat would go ahead automatically with silver; with bronze they'd need 173.20, which I think they can manage since it's well below their TEB score. While they scored more at TEB then F&S scores at CoC, it's only a two point difference, not enough to say with any certainty what will happen at SC.

Boborva & Soloviev and Samuelson & Bates: Would both need to win Skate Canada, and since it is not possible have two winners, reduce number of teams that can pass the Kerrs to seven.

It is of course unlikely that either B&S or S&B will win Skate Canada, but even then there's six teams to pass the Kerrs. Eliminate C&L as unlikely due to the score tiebreaker and it's five. But here it goes down to the wire, because it F&S get silver and P&B bronze at SC, it seems very likely they will both go ahead of the Kerrs on the score tiebreaker, and it seems equally likely that all three of B&A, V&M, and K&N will go ahead on their medals. In order for the Kerrs to make the Grand Prix Finale, P&B must beat F&S. And I don't think there's any telling whether they'll do that or not.

Wow! What a scenario evaluation. Thanks.:)
 

mishieru07

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Whole post.

:rock: I don't have the patience to do all that Math! Good job and thank you!

So far, the only discipline that has pretty much been going to form is Dance (when has it NOT gone to form? :laugh:) Can't wait for the GPF; that will be one exciting showdown!

Happy for the Kerrs and D/W!! I love the Kerrs and would be :clap: if they made it to the GPF. Personally, I don't think F&S will beat P&B at SC but it has been one heck of a topsy turvy season! We'll see but I expect B/A and V/M to comfortably win their events. If they lose that would be a greater shock imo than Mao off the podim at CoR and Joannie not winning CoC.

I'm still not a fan of D/W's POTO FD ... I wish the transition from the POTO main theme to Music of The Night and back again wasn't so jarring. I loved Eleanor Rigby and Samson and Delilah ... hopefully I'll love this one by the end of the season. Why oh why can't they have W/P's cuts!

Thanks to Doris for the explanation! :agree:

Off topic: I love D/W's OD and can see why people might find it more interesting. While I understand that V/M's Flamenco isn't as outstanding (Not that I mind, I really CANNOT imagine them doing an Oriental dance and passionate + smexy Scott is something they sell darn well imo!), why isn't B/A's Moldavian Dance regarded as unusual? Don't remember other teams doing it before.
But anyway, all I care about is that the teams properly interpret and sell their dance. And that they get REWARDED appropriately for it.

Yaye on to SA!
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
I didn't compare them to the Kerrs or question the placements. I asked whether D/W's very high marks were warranted.


they are not. Simply put, 4 minutes of displaying how fast they can string all their well executed tricks together. Just a headscratcher. When they do their footwork sequences, there is no variation to the dance holds, and they are not close enough together.
 

sfgirl

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
D/W have many difficult lifts in this season's programs. The one that fascinates me is the final lift in their OD. Meryl flips her body around with Charlie's help. It looks like it would be hard to do. I guess the fact that she is light makes it easier. Although the ending doesn't always look completely smooth, I love watching it.:love:
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
1. doris, thanks for your insightful post. I have one question, though.

02. The lifts have amazing transitions and complexity, including surprising changes of direction. Two of the 3 lifts are new to them this year. The first lift with the unexpected uprise of Meryl is amazing. That lift is getting GOE's of 3 from the judges. Furthermore, the changes from position to positions are smooth and fluid. In the case of the final rotational lift, it's pretty stock. But it's amazingly fast and gets a ton of rotations in before the time runs out. And more rotations = better GOE. The Kerrs are still using lifts from the stock book of level 4 lifts-the lift with Sinead laid out is the same as one F&S do, for example. And they have been using the handstand lift for years. Also, AFAIK, there are no extra points for the girl lifting the guy. And his leg line in the air gets graded.

Where would it be graded? As a fourth lift, it's not a GOE element but considered a transition. Do they mark it there, or just overall in the PCS?

I'm a little surprised to see the enmity directed towards D/W's FD. While I still take issue with the first lift (it's fast and everything, but the positions aren't held or particularly pleasing to thine eye), I definitely lovely how they're performing it (such an athletic team). They need to work on the details (compare to their OD, which is simply jam-packed with detail work), but frankly, the farther away from POTO it gets, the happier I am. I could watch that straight line lift all day.

One more thing - the audience was clapping throughout the last third of D/W's program despite the fact that it's not music that is easy to clap to. Just gives you an idea of how strong their projection is.

As for the Kerrs, I'm finally enjoying them this season. One thing worth noting is that C/P were only two points behind them in the free, and that's with a level one on the second half the combo lift.
 

npa

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
:Off topic: I love D/W's OD and can see why people might find it more interesting. While I understand that V/M's Flamenco isn't as outstanding (Not that I mind, I really CANNOT imagine them doing an Oriental dance and passionate + smexy Scott is something they sell darn well imo!), why isn't B/A's Moldavian Dance regarded as unusual? Don't remember other teams doing it before.
But anyway, all I care about is that the teams properly interpret and sell their dance. And that they get REWARDED appropriately for it.

Yaye on to SA!

I think Shpilband-Zueva top teams have best ODs in this season (from what i aws)/
I think V-M OD is 100% best OD. And its unusual flamenco, that greate. They show a lot off passion, power,/ Its mpst difficult OD/

I love Shibutanies power in there OD . And i enjoy humor in D-W OD and Meryl face work in this dance and all this small moves.
As for B-A.... All Linichuck work look for me like old dances from 80th. And this moldavian music maby Moiseev used in 60th. And there FD look old. But Tanith and Ben are good skaters. I wish them good luck in this season.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
they are not. Simply put, 4 minutes of displaying how fast they can string all their well executed tricks together. Just a headscratcher. When they do their footwork sequences, there is no variation to the dance holds, and they are not close enough together.

Note that my remarks are directed to D&W vs. K&K, not vs. V&M. However, here's what the 2009-2010 ISU guidelines for dance tell you goes into the GOE for step sequences (p. 27):
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1442

STEP SEQUENCES

Pattern/Placement incorrect or incomplete 1 grade

More than two arms length between partners (Non-touching sequence) 1 grade

Inclusion of not permitted element/movement- e.g. stop, jump more than ½ rev. (per each) 1 grade

Skating in Hand-in–Hand hold in sustained position with fully extended arms (in hold) 1 grade

Separation to change a hold exceeds one measure of music 1 grade

Step Sequence does not reflect the character of the chosen dance (OD) 1 grade

Step Sequence is not skated to the rhythm pattern of the music ( OD & FD) GOE in minus

Lack of flow (movement across the ice) GOE in minus

Increase GOE by 1 grade for each of the following difficult characteristics:
Reflection of the rhythm pattern (OD & FD) and character of the dance (OD)
Skating with good speed and flow
Fast movement across the ice

Actually, close holds and close skating are not particularly rewarded in the current version of ISU Communication 1567 in guidelines for step sequences. However, speed and flow across the ice is worth a point in GOE.

So I would argue that D&W's TES are completely justified.

The place to ding D&W for this stuff would be somewhere in the PCS.
And for better or worse, PCS components have been linked as incremental bumps to speed since Grishuk's days (when it was the single 6.0 presentation mark). T&D skated much closer together, but speed won the day in 1994. And speed has ruled ever since. These days, the line item most related to speed is Skating Skills.

So let's check how PCS components are graded in dance for FD and OD: From Communication 1522, pp 33-34:

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1016

PCS components in the 9.0 to 8.25 region, which is where D&W score:

Note holds are not mentioned

Skating Skills (note holds are not mentioned)
- strong, sure, fluid edges
- supple knee action
- stylish, precise, interesting & neat
steps/turns
- ease in accelerating even during
difficult steps
- always multidirectional
- broad skill range for both,

Linking Footwork
Again what they do is offset by 'superior ice coverage' = speed.

- difficult, varied, sequences of
edges/steps/turns/holds for both
throughout
- one move flows easily into the next
- superior ice coverage

Performance.
This is one place where D&W could be dinged, but their Projection is excellent. And it is the effortlessness of change of holds as well as their relative difficulty that is required for the grade, not the closeness that is explicitly called out. But the way judging is done, if you gave them 9 for SS, you might drop them to 8 for Perf if their holds deeply offend you. And that would be counteracted by the fact that their projection (and for that matter those of the Kerrs) is excellent.

- coordinated movements- excellent
matching
- superb carriage & lines
- effortless change of difficult holds
- project strongly

OK, let's look at Interpretation
Nothing about holds:
- skaters and music meld – internal
motivation
- very good range of interesting
movements/gestures
- excellent ability to relate as one to
reflect rhythm of music

Choreography
No holds here

- superior choreography-clearly
understandable
- variety of innovative moves that
develop theme
- change of pace/tempo incorporated
with ease
- excellent use of music /space
/symmetry

Timing:
- -skaters and music meld – internal
motivation
- very good range of interesting
movements/gestures
- excellent ability to relate as one to
reflect music/theme
- excellent and understandable
expression of the music’s style and
character
- timing: 100% correct as above
- music selection: 100% as above

So the only place to ding a couple about their holds is in performance. And the measure of closeness that is objectionable is not particularly strictly spelled out either. As the current communications are written close skating and different holds are not adequately rewarded.

That's the fault of the ISU, not D&W. And it's been true, as I said before since Grishuk and Platov won their first OGM.

1. doris, thanks for your insightful post. I have one question, though.
Where would it be graded? As a fourth lift, it's not a GOE element but considered a transition. Do they mark it there, or just overall in the PCS? .

If it's the fourth lift, it would show up in parts of the PCS-transitions, choreo, etc. If it's one of the 3 lifts it would be graded the same as if the guy lifted the girl. So the better choice is to make it a fourth lift.
 
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semosk8tfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Country
United-States
Doris,
Thank you for your posts. I have always loved skating but have never really followed ice dancing. D/W have drawn me in. I loved last season's FD and enjoy this season's as well. Your posts are very helpful in understanding the "nuts and bolts" of ice dancing and scoring. Again, thanks.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
they are not. Simply put, 4 minutes of displaying how fast they can string all their well executed tricks together. Just a headscratcher. When they do their footwork sequences, there is no variation to the dance holds, and they are not close enough together.

Well, saying D&W's scores are not "warranted" is ridiculous when three different judging panels have given them high scores. I think Doris Pulaski has done a great job in explaining what the judges and tech specialists look for in a program according to ISU rules. If you can do great difficulty with great speed whether its in singles, pairs or dance, you will get great scores.
 

Enthusiast

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Skating Skills is not just about speed, it should be effortless whilst maintain good flow and a fast travel. And of course quiet deep edges. Grishuk & Domnina- both ladies have that nice quality, really beautiful technique.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Well, Crone and Poirier have my favourite FD of the season. Obviously their dance skills don't yet put them at the top of the pack, but in terms of the choreography and how it goes to the music and all the beautiful details — this is a program I will look forward to watching in every competition I can see it. So far, this choreo has stood out the most for me this season.

I think Davis and White are terrific. I just can't quite get past the Phantom of the Opera music selection. Just a personal bias.
 

Dyan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
.....
Off topic: I love D/W's OD and can see why people might find it more interesting. While I understand that V/M's Flamenco isn't as outstanding (Not that I mind, I really CANNOT imagine them doing an Oriental dance and passionate + smexy Scott is something they sell darn well imo!), why isn't B/A's Moldavian Dance regarded as unusual? Don't remember other teams doing it before. But anyway, all I care about is that the teams properly interpret and sell their dance. And that they get REWARDED appropriately for it.

Yaye on to SA!

I think the reason some people might tend to lump B&A's OD in the group of "just another folk dance" might be because to the untrained eye Tanith and Ben's Moldavian dance looks close enough to what people expect to see from a "European" folk dance with the music and costumes that they don't realize there is a difference. Just a guess on my part.

I don't think it is just another folk dance and it suits Tanith and Ben perfectly. I also feel as if B&A's OD is a great contrast to their gorgeous FD.

Last year I would have said that P&B would definitely come ahead of F&S whenever they met but F&S's programs are really strong this year. I love both teams though; for me it's one of those situations in which I don't know who I want to finish ahead. Although if P&B winning the silver results in the Kerr's going to the GPF I may have to root for Nathalie and Fabian.

:rock: :clap: Doris. eta: Props to MissIzzy as well.
 
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