11-15-2009, 08:12 PM
I don't see how B&A's FD is any more of a downer than V&M's Mahler or C&L's Requiem for a Dream (and I do like both of those programs). Especially the theme of C&L's FD seems more angsty and dramatic than B&A's. Susie Wynne commented that she felt that it might be harder to sell the theme and music (of C&L's FD) to the audience. Apparently the judges didn't think so and neither did I (I realize my opinion doesn't count ). Also from what I could see B&A seemed to receive a pretty good reaction from the crowd.
I liked Tanith's new costume but admit I prefer the original one.
11-15-2009, 08:20 PM
C/L's is a downer, no doubt: disaffection, alienation, drug addiction. It's intense music that's repetitive (not a negative judgement - I have it on my iPod).
But V/M? It's actually quite light, I think. Very much airy-lovey-dovey stuff. I happen to like airy-lovey-dovey on Virtue and Moir, though.
I think B/A's is more of a downer relative to their other FDs though, and there are enough people who think that it's an odd fit so I can see where they're coming from.
11-15-2009, 08:44 PM
On cloud nine and refusing to come down!
11-15-2009, 09:13 PM
You have a point. I shouldn't have included V&M's music in the "downer" category but going back to the comment about C&L's music, I think that V&M's music if not repetitive does stay mostly at one level. In the past there have been couples who have used one piece of music in that way and the comments were made that this doesn't allow for up and downs and doing so might lose the attention of the audience. It's true that with V&M's music I haven't noticed any issues with the crowd being pulled in by it. That isn't a criticism either as I like the Mahler FD. My first reaction to it was more along the line of "oh, okay... but it's really growing on me and I can't wait to see it again next weekend.
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
You are right about enough people feeling B&A's FD is a downer which is a shame. I think the music is beautiful, it has different levels and builds up to a beautiful ending. And the choreography is stunning.
I'm debating whether or not to post my next opinion but here goes:
First allow me to say that I am not including everyone who doesn't like B&A's FD in my next comment. Sometimes the same program will hit different people a certain way; it's subjective.
However, I do wonder if some of the criticism of B&A's FD is because it's B&A.
For example, last season so many people complained about DomShabs' placement at worlds including the first place in the CD. I agree with those who believe DomShabs' OD and FD placements were too high but looking at their CD, they were excellent. At the time I remember thinking that Max's knees must be healing (I was wrong about that). It seems if a team is very unpopular then some people won't be open to whatever they do even when they do it well.*
Hopefully B&A will keep training their program so they can skate it all out at the GPF. I'd really like to see some higher GOE points. I believe that is (at least partially) what is making the difference between the 95 points as opposed to reaching 100 or more.
N&B are another couple who must be wondering what more they need to do. After their first GP event in Paris, I was thinking that even if Kim and Brent don't make the olympic team it did seem as if there would at least be a great competition between them and S&B. After seeing them finish behind C&Z here I'm not so sure.
*Just to elaborate on the comment regarding some people not liking B&A's FD because they don't like them. I'm not referring to people who don't like the music or feel the program is heavy. What I'm referring to are the posts that don't really comment on the FD or OD themselves but the tone of those posts make me feel that some seem annoyed by the idea that B&A were getting praised.
Last edited by Dyan; 11-15-2009 at 09:59 PM.
11-15-2009, 10:23 PM
Dyan, that's a fair point eloquently said. I think there are skaters who for us individually, can do no wrong so it stands to reason that for whatever reason, there will be those who simply can "do no right." DomShabs is a great example. Brian Joubert might be another.
I don't think B/A's FD is a downer, though I can see why people might, especially if they're not comparing it with other FDs of the season or looking at it on it's own but comparing it their lighter FDs of the past. Even Tosca, which isn't exactly light, has a bigger feel to it.
As for NavBom, I have to admit I don't get the praise for them and I do think the battle is between them and Chock/Zurlein (S/B being comfortably third of the US couples). I don't think the Hubbells will get any real traction (my favourite of the three duos) this season.
Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 11-15-2009 at 10:41 PM.
11-15-2009, 10:54 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
The guidelines for level's on lifts are on p 19 ff. of communication 1567.
My suspicion is that one person with a timer is responsible for the downgrades. The requirements on lifts are that this of that position must be held for 3 seconds. K&N were trying to speed up their lifts so that they didn't get 3 points off in time penalties as they did in China. The result is that they lost at least 6 points in lower levels (and as lower levels have lower GOE's, it gets worse).
11-16-2009, 12:30 AM
Off the ice
I'm a bit late to the party - really, how inconsiderate to hold an event in EST . A couple of things:
First, I am thrilled for the Zaretskis. They had a difficult season last year, and there was talk of them not being sent to Vancouver even though they had qualified. I think there's no doubt anymore that they're going. They are not one of the top teams in skating, but it seems as though by now everyone has a GP medal and I'm happy for them they finally made it - and came awfully close to a silver. I know this FD means a lot to them.
I'm also very pleased for C/L, who have been very frustrated with being the second Italian team and of being judged as such. Can't imagine they'll finish above anyone else in the GPF, but it's great that they are going. Is there any way Anna might be convinced to wear less eye shadow there?
Why oh why did Tanith switch dresses? She had a beautiful one at CoC. This one is just so generic. Regarding their scores compared with V/M and D/W, I'm really curious to see how those three teams will fare in head to head competition. I suspect D/W's scores have been slightly inflated on account of skating against somewhat weaker fields than their rivals.
Backtracking to the C/S story, here is the GS summary of Worlds 2002. I found it very interesting. And yes, I believe what happened destroyed C/S's career; those two were probably not contenders for the top of the podium, but they were certainly better than some of the teams that passed them after 2002.
Last edited by Buttercup; 11-16-2009 at 12:52 AM.
11-16-2009, 01:33 AM
To whomever wrote that icedance summary from 2002 worlds .
Thanks for posting that Buttercup.
I wish I had been spending a little more time here back then. I believe that was the only media article I've seen regarding the worlds controversy that used objective commentary when dealing with the C&S/D&V incident. I've always felt that C&S were deserving of that medal and was gutted for them over how they were treated immediately after the dance competition ended and for years after until they retired. I remember them being seemingly ostracized for the first year or two after the Nagano worlds event.
Also interesting comments about L&T which I agree with. As much as I enjoyed L&T as skaters I couldn't watch them when Susie Wynne and Terry Gannon were commentating which was most of the time in the U.S. because the "Naomi and Peter are never given their due" speech would always come up like clockwork. It bugged me to see them spoken about as constantly cheated because IMO they were not. In fact the North American media did L&T no favors by encouraging them to believe that it wasn't them but the evil judges.
As much as I've felt badly for the IMO the at times OTT criticism B&A have received in a way it may have been a good thing (well the skating related criticism not the personal attacks). The move to Linichuk and the return to a more sophisticated, grown up style has been good for Tanith and Ben. Perhaps if someone had been more honest with L&T I think things may have ended differently for them.
Looking at D&V and L&T it seems the fans appear to place more emphasis on being balletic than having great technique or suitable difficulty (except lately). With these two teams they were such crowd pleasers that people ignored the things they weren't doing well or doing enough of. The media and the supporters of these teams took full advantage of the fact that the majority of the crowds at skating events aren't keeping tracking of difficulty and overall skating skills. They are applauding the programs that move them emotionally. Another "Gannon-ism" was "the crowd like them best." Too bad having the most crowd pleasing program doesn't always mean it's the best competitive program.
11-16-2009, 07:02 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Mad props to Golden Skate :chorus:
11-16-2009, 08:13 AM
I'm so sad about the Italians - a team I was never keen on. They did an excellent job and without all that schmaltz they used to use.
If you've seen one Russian like FD, you've seen them all. Nothing new, and it's become standard for a medal.
11-16-2009, 09:37 AM
On cloud nine and refusing to come down!
That's why I sometimes rather watch without commentary. I'm no technik expert but hearing comments really affects my perception, especially on first viewing. So I stick with B.Eurosport if I can; imo they're the most impartial and always respectful.
Originally Posted by Dyan
I also suspect that some people actually dislike certain skaters so much that it overshadows their performance altogether. Whatever they do, it always seems wrong, not good enough, not original enough, eternally snoozefest etc (at least going by here). It does seem that the more highly ranked a team is, the more lovers and haters they get. To me, it seems that some weren't just critical of the programme, they were getting critical of the skaters themselves at times.
ITA that the media can affect the public's view .. how many people outside of diehard uber fans can actually estimate the difficulty of a programme against another? (And even here we quibble over PCS, levels and downgrades). Just look at SLC. Sometimes, I really pity the judges.
Joesitz, why are you sad for the Italians? I love them and am thrilled that they won silver - isn't it good that they're moving away from schmaltz and trying new styles? For the record, I actually like their RoaD.
Doris, thanks for your explanation! It definitely makes sense - they got dinged quite badly for extended lifts in CoC. Well it didn't help here and I do hope they pull up! And burn those costumes please.
11-16-2009, 09:49 AM
I just assumed that team in the red pajamas would win over them and I went on doing other things. I think that Italian team will make the Finals. Hope so.
Originally Posted by mishieru07
11-16-2009, 10:26 AM
Well, they were all summer, but who knows how long these relationships last especially when separated by distance and now tight competition.
Originally Posted by KKonas
11-16-2009, 10:32 AM
I wonder about that too.
Originally Posted by cloudkicker09
11-16-2009, 10:45 AM
The heavy toll that ice dance takes on the hearts and minds of the skaters was never clearer to me than when I watched the medal ceremony and looked at Alexandra Zaretski looking at the flags. You could read so much history and emotion in her eyes! They are not my favorite team, but I absolutely have to say: what a beautiful moment, and HOORAY that they finished ahead of Khoklova/Novitzki, who they CLEARLY outskated.
I love these unexpected moments. I love when the backstory and humanity jump right out of the screen and grab you.