Men's LP Saturday Nov 14th 9:00 p.m EST

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. It feels more prevalent because I see it at every event. Journalists write comments, "as soon as the judges know Akiko better her pcs will come up"

I actually read that quote about Akiko in two different articles and find it unacceptable that this "reputation scoring" has become the norm.
It is not just casual, but "accepted" that the better known skaters will get the benefit of the doubt and better marks.

2. refer back to my point one

3. I am not sure about that, only can bring up the quotes from Speedy declaring in the strongest language possible that "this favoritism in judging will be eliminated under the new scoring system."
I don't believe Speedy -and the anonymous judges do not help any perception of fairness.
I think getting the podium right is still the most important thing - but seeing how disparities/opportunities in parts of the scoring (pcs, goe) makes this system transparent at times. I wonder why it was designed the way it was.

Last night I knew that as long as Rachael did not fall more than once she would be placed second.
How did I know this? Was it just a lucky guess?
Looking at Rachael's somewhat slow skating, mediocre spins and spirals after she missed her 3T I felt Julia and Fumi both skated well enough to be placed over her.
Maybe I am wrong, I was watching a Live stream but this is all too familiar.

I could cite many examples and I am sure you can too.

As someone pointed out, don't skaters tend to get better as they get better known? I mean, If someone gets better known, that's because they're skating more, right? If that happens, won't they improve? People say that Flatt would be the highest ranked American. True, but guess what - her projection has improved this season, as had her confidence and musicality on the ice. Secondly, she was ranked BEHIND Sebestyn and Suguri on the PCS scores - and both have sturdier reputations than she does. Was she perfect? Of course not. But I suspect she got credit for fully rotating the second triple in the combo, and that was enough to slip her ahead of Sebestyn and Suguri, who didn't try 3-3s.

Was reputation judging abnormal in the days of 6.0? Of course not.

Speedy's strong language aside (and really, putting too much credence in those words strikes me as rather foolish as what else is he gonna say?) I do feel that COP does make things fairer. Something I guess you and I won't ever agree on.

[Buttercup]

Maybe I'm naive, but IMO the judges do the best they can most of the time. Reputation judging and cultural bias etc. happen because it's just human nature and this is a sport judged by humans. So a one hundred percent "objective" result will never materialize. Of course the Russian judge prefers a different aesthetic than the Japanese judge and the American judge likes different things alltogether. That's why there's a whole panel of them, so the bias cancel each other out to the highest possible degree. Yeah, we know that it doesn't always work out, but IMO they try. Even most of the results I didn't agree with in the last couple of years were somehow justifiable...they just didn't reflect my taste.

What a fantastic post!

Thank you for your insights. I am glad there is another person that doesn't think the majority of judges are bad, horrible, and dishonest people!

Yes, I agree, Katha made some very good points, and while I believe the judges sometimes get things wrong, I don't think this is malicious or evidence of a conspiracy.

What I'm wondering is whether or not there's any way to work on cultural biases and favoritism during the judges' training - it's important that judges be aware that they may be favoring certain styles/skaters, even if not consciously, so that they'll take their own bias into account when evaluating performances. I realize that's a difficult thing to train yourself to do. But most of us as fans are capable of acknowledging the strengths of skaters we don't like, so I don't see why we should expect any less from the judges, who are, after all, trained and experienced experts.

[janetfan]

As someone pointed out, don't skaters tend to get better as they get better known? I mean, If someone gets better known, that's because they're skating more, right? If that happens, won't they improve? People say that Flatt would be the highest ranked American. True, but guess what - her projection has improved this season, as had her confidence and musicality on the ice. Secondly, she was ranked BEHIND Sebestyn and Suguri on the PCS scores - and both have sturdier reputations than she does. Was she perfect? Of course not. But I suspect she got credit for fully rotating the second triple in the combo, and that was enough to slip her ahead of Sebestyn and Suguri, who didn't try 3-3s.

Was reputation judging abnormal in the days of 6.0? Of course not.

Speedy's strong language aside (and really, putting too much credence in those words strikes me as rather foolish as what else is he gonna say?) I do feel that COP does make things fairer. Something I guess you and I won't ever agree on.

I might be able to agree with you on that - but my point is NOT to make this a competition between 6.0 and CoP.
I accept Cop is what we have today and 6.0 with all of it's flaws is a thing of the past.
I also wonder if you might agree with me as well - that there is still too much favoritism and politics in skating today.
Whether you agree or not I think skating will be infinitely better once these non-sporting factors are gone or greatly diminished.

In an SP, when Rachael missed a jump - I see nothing else superior about her skating. Not her speed, her spins or her spirals. They are average at best - and that is being generous. I do see improved musicality t - but not enough for me to place her above Julia or Fumie last night.
That is just an opinion - from a stream - I could be wrong about that.
I am not so wrong though to think if Mirai, Ashley, Alissa or Caroline had been there instead of Rachael they would have gotten the exact same placement.

Maybe I should stop drinking so much ....coffee

[Joesitz]

The PCS components tend to combine dissimilar items, plus they run suspiciously like each other competition to competition, even if the skater in question performs poorly. In dance, the Performance component contains both "Projects strongly" and "has good carriage/posture". These items have nothing to do with one another and there are wonderful skaters with exquisite carriage who can't project out to the audience at all. And there are great performers with relatively poor carriage/posture. How does one assign the Performance component to such competitors, other than by reputation or by indexing off a better defined component?

If the PCS definition is flawed, the judging that results from it will drift into the area of reputation judging-which is where the Artistic or Presentation component used to be judged in the days of 6.0.

One is not really an artist, evidently, until the world has already acknowledged you as an artist.

The youngsters suffer from this side of it.

And if you're already an acknowledged artist, if you paint a toilet seat and hang it on the wall, it will be called art.

Plush's programs, which have virtually no transitions, get good transitions scores.

Excellent post, Doris. The PC scores are so flawed The five parts to them, imo, are irrelevant since the Plus GoEs and the Levels awarded in the Tech have pretty much taken care of the components. Just sum them all up and you have what the skater(s) brought to the program.

[janetfan]

Excellent post, Doris. The PC scores are so flawed The five parts to them, imo, are irrelevant since the Plus GoEs and the Levels awarded in the Tech have pretty much taken care of the components. Just sum them all up and you have what the skater(s) brought to the program.

Good post Doris and also Joe.

The system seems flawed and in a way that favors the top skaters. So what if they have an off day - just jack up their pcs and they are still in the competition.

If they have a good day, well then just reward them twice as much.

[evangeline]

The system seems flawed and in a way that favors the top skaters. So what if they have an off day - just jack up their pcs and they are still in the competition.

But how is this any different than the Presentation mark under 6.0?

[ImaginaryPogue]

Fair enough, janetfan. I promise to not turn this into a 6.0 vs COP debate. Since we're discussing the ladies, I'll shift the rest of my comments there.

[cornell08]

Lets be serious, people-- this is a pretty weak mens field. However, I like Evan as a person even if I'm not a huge fan of his skating-- he puts 100+% into everything he does and I really respect him for that. However, I really don't recognize that freeskate as Scheherazade...he needs to move out of his comfort zone and wear a program-appropriate costume and really get into the mindset of the story he is trying to portray! I am amazed Carrolls let him off this easy with such a lackluster interpretation. Artistry and skating skills is where Oda and Lambiel shine-- he will need to bring more to the Olympic stage.

[Nadia01]

However, I really don't recognize that freeskate as Scheherazade...he needs to move out of his comfort zone and wear a program-appropriate costume and really get into the mindset of the story he is trying to portray!

Was Evan supposed to be Scheherazade (the character)? BF recognized the music and asked me when men started skating to that music...

I thought maybe Evan was trying to be Scheherazade's husband (the King), but with the black costume (which looks remarkably like the one from his SP) I couldn't tell what he was trying to do.

[janetfan]

But how is this any different than the Presentation mark under 6.0?

Hello Evangeline - please refer to ImaginaryPogues last post.
Pretty please :biggrin:

I just said/conceded 6.0 is gone and that it had many problems. That does not mean that CoP does not have it's own problems or some of the same one's 6.0 had.

Doris and Joe just made pretty clear points about this and that is what I was addressing. It is not about 6.0 but more about this season's GP marks and scoring.

Have to rake leaves now before SA comes on TV!!!!
Maybe some fresh air and exercise will straighten me out

[evangeline]

Perhaps the black of Evan's costume is supposed to represent the darkness of the king's soul?

[i love to skate]

What I'm wondering is whether or not there's any way to work on cultural biases and favoritism during the judges' training - it's important that judges be aware that they may be favoring certain styles/skaters, even if not consciously, so that they'll take their own bias into account when evaluating performances. I realize that's a difficult thing to train yourself to do. But most of us as fans are capable of acknowledging the strengths of skaters we don't like, so I don't see why we should expect any less from the judges, who are, after all, trained and experienced experts.

I think judges are aware of cultural biases - even in everyday life the majority of us know what biases we have and that they exist. It would be almost impossible to train yourself to ignore these factors though. The majority of judges are able to recognize flaws in skaters and (usually) this is reflected in the marks. As Katha said it is never going to be a sport where favoritism or biases do not exist because it is human nature.

[cornell08]

He really ought to channel Charlie White's Samson. Or at least get the same costume designer to make him a more plausible outfit.

[Medusa]

Only watched the top four, spent the entire weekend away from the computer - so I'll make it short: this was even more underwhelming than NHK as a competition. And as far as Evan and his PCS are concerned; I totally agree with Buttercup on all, really all, accounts and find this double standard on this and other boards concerning Evan vs. certain European skaters simply astonishing and utterly, completely annoying.

[i love to skate]

this double standard on this and other boards concerning Evan vs. certain European skaters simply astonishing and utterly, completely annoying.

Perhaps it is has to do with the cultural biases that we have been disucssing? We all have biases.