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Thread: Men's LP Saturday Nov 14th 9:00 p.m EST

  1. #181
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Amodio bores you?
    And what happened to him last tonight?

    Bradley had the same funny Mozart program as TEB?I liked that program!
    I think Amodio is a very entertaining skater and like his programs.

    I was referring to Lutai - I thought he was your other favorite
    He is OK too, just had a bad skate last night.

    I liked Bradley's LP alot and he makes the classical music work so well .

    Mroz - he looks like he is skating without music at times - the Beethoven is a bad choice for him imo.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    It must be killing certain fans that Evan refuses to succumb to competition nerves like so many others .

    Here is a little secret for you - Plushy has been skating the same program much longer than Evan has, and so has Joubert. Or haven't you noticed
    And for that matter, Weir doesn't even seem to change his music
    I'll agree that it's good that Lysacek is not succumbing to nerves, but do you genuinely believe he deserves to have the highest PCS of the free skate? Higher than Oda's pitch perfect TEB performance? Thinking about it, it's hard for me to get THAT riled up because that's the only performance this season that really deserves astronomical PCS - the other good/great skates deserve good scores, but certainly not in the 80's (Verner at TEB, Plushy at CoR, Joubert at NHK). Like someone else said, it seems like the winner is being overscored (S/Z, Kim, Lysacek) to make sure they win. Given that none of the three was particularly close (Lysacek clearly deserved to win), I'm sorta fine with it. I guess it makes me wonder if the judges think that Lysacek can't win on TES (Amodio was higher in the short, Mroz the highest) - we see that every so often.. It won't happen at the Olympics to this extent, though (I certainly hope not, because while Kim is definitely the class act in women's, men is a lot deeper/broader and Lysacek's best probably doesn't rank).

    From Ice Skating International...

    Eight judges marked the Men's event as the Frech judge, Ms. Florence Catry de Surmont did not appear on the judges' stand. No reason was given for her absence as of Friday.
    So it seems that the juggling was precisely the reason said: to make sure we couldn't see who was doing what (aka, the judge from Cheatostan).

  3. #183
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Here is a little secret for you - Plushy has been skating the same program much longer than Evan has, and so has Joubert. Or haven't you noticed
    Last 3 Lps of Evgeni were Nijinski, Godfather for 2 seasons and now this new Tango.
    Nijinki is my favorite program of his of all Plushy programs and I think I know it by heart. If you imply that Tango is in the same league as Nijinsky, I will honestly flip out of window.
    I m not Joubert expert but his new Lp doesnt seem like what he did in the past also.

    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    This makes it very interesting sometimes, because what to do with a real B? The Greek language Brooklyn newspaper used to represent the B in Brooklyn as M(u)P(i) as far as I remember.
    .
    wow, nice post
    Brooklyn's paper was correct. Apart from the 24 alphabet letters greek language has also some diphthong letters in its grammar One of these in (M+p) resulting as the B of english language. One more is (T+z) resulting as the J of English.
    Last edited by seniorita; 11-15-2009 at 09:08 AM.

  4. #184
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'll agree that it's good that Lysacek is not succumbing to nerves, but do you genuinely believe he deserves to have the highest PCS of the free skate? Higher than Oda's pitch perfect TEB performance? Thinking about it, it's hard for me to get THAT riled up because that's the only performance this season that really deserves astronomical PCS - the other good/great skates deserve good scores, but certainly not in the 80's (Verner at TEB, Plushy at CoR, Joubert at NHK). Like someone else said, it seems like the winner is being overscored (S/Z, Kim, Lysacek) to make sure they win. Given that none of the three was particularly close (Lysacek clearly deserved to win), I'm sorta fine with it. I guess it makes me wonder if the judges think that Lysacek can't win on TES (Amodio was higher in the short, Mroz the highest) - we see that every so often.. It won't happen at the Olympics to this extent, though (I certainly hope not, because while Kim is definitely the class act in women's, men is a lot deeper/broader and Lysacek's best probably doesn't rank).

    So it seems that the juggling was precisely the reason said: to make sure we couldn't see who was doing what (aka, the judge from Cheatostan).
    Do you think I constantly post about "scoring by reputation" because I think there is NO favoritism, as well as very inconsistent judging?

    Actually, CoP scoring has opened a can of worms that keeps many fans in a very uneasy state.

    Before, getting the podium order correct was all that mattered. And that was often wrong under 6.0 - and what fans complained about.

    Today, it is not enough for Oda to win TEB, or for Plushy to win COR.
    There is a constant non-stop disagreement over who deserevd better this or better that throughout the season.

    It actually opens the door to examine much more closely how these skaters are being marked. And, it can be revealing and does seem to support my contention that favoritism has not been eliminated and indeed, is alive and well and flourishing maybe even more than in the past.

    So they will meet at the GPF and settle whether Oda was better than Evan, was better than Joubert, etc. Plushy won't be there (a wise strategic choice imo - why risk a loss before Vancouver and give up some of that air of invincibilty).

    But is it possible for ISU judges to be honest and objective in Vancouver when most fans can see they are anything but that during the Grand Prix season?

    It is strange to hear not only fans, but journalists defending this reputation scoring so casually. I guess in skating it has and always will be acceptable for politics to trump fairness.

    ETA: I can't tell as well watching a Live stream - but thought Rachael was overmarked last night. Of course it is easy to understand why..........but because she is American, at SA, does not make me happier or feel better about the judging
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-15-2009 at 09:36 AM.

  5. #185
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    1. How do you think it's flourishing more than in the past?

    2. At what point does it stop being reasonable human bias/perception and start being reputation judging?

    3. Is the casual acceptance more to do with the idea that'll be virtually impossible to solve so the best we can hope for is that the medals aren't wrong.

  6. #186
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    Maybe I'm naive, but IMO the judges do the best they can most of the time. Reputation judging and cultural bias etc. happen because it's just human nature and this is a sport judged by humans. So a one hundred percent "objective" result will never materialize. Of course the Russian judge prefers a different aesthetic than the Japanese judge and the American judge likes different things alltogether. That's why there's a whole panel of them, so the bias cancel each other out to the highest possible degree. Yeah, we know that it doesn't always work out, but IMO they try. Even most of the results I didn't agree with in the last couple of years were somehow justifiable...they just didn't reflect my taste.

    You could argue that COP has made it easier for the judges to hide behind the numbers, but it also forces them to look at each element seperately and perhaps give credit where a skater has done something well, even if they don't like his/her/their overall impression. And it's not like the announcement of their nationality ever stopped them from making controversial decisions under the 6.0-system.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by katha View Post
    Maybe I'm naive, but IMO the judges do the best they can most of the time. Reputation judging and cultural bias etc. happen because it's just human nature and this is a sport judged by humans. So a one hundred percent "objective" result will never materialize. Of course the Russian judge prefers a different aesthetic than the Japanese judge and the American judge likes different things alltogether. That's why there's a whole panel of them, so the bias cancel each other out to the highest possible degree. Yeah, we know that it doesn't always work out, but IMO they try. Even most of the results I didn't agree with in the last couple of years were somehow justifiable...they just didn't reflect my taste.

    You could argue that COP has made it easier for the judges to hide behind the numbers, but it also forces them to look at each element seperately and perhaps give credit where a skater has done something well, even if they don't like his/her/their overall impression. And it's not like the announcement of their nationality ever stopped them from making controversial decisions under the 6.0-system.
    What a fantastic post!

    Thank you for your insights. I am glad there is another person that doesn't think the majority of judges are bad, horrible, and dishonest people!

  8. #188
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. How do you think it's flourishing more than in the past?

    2. At what point does it stop being reasonable human bias/perception and start being reputation judging?

    3. Is the casual acceptance more to do with the idea that'll be virtually impossible to solve so the best we can hope for is that the medals aren't wrong.
    1. It feels more prevalent because I see it at every event. Journalists write comments, "as soon as the judges know Akiko better her pcs will come up"

    I actually read that quote about Akiko in two different articles and find it unacceptable that this "reputation scoring" has become the norm.
    It is not just casual, but "accepted" that the better known skaters will get the benefit of the doubt and better marks.

    2. refer back to my point one

    3. I am not sure about that, only can bring up the quotes from Speedy declaring in the strongest language possible that "this favoritism in judging will be eliminated under the new scoring system."
    I don't believe Speedy -and the anonymous judges do not help any perception of fairness.
    I think getting the podium right is still the most important thing - but seeing how disparities/opportunities in parts of the scoring (pcs, goe) makes this system transparent at times. I wonder why it was designed the way it was.

    Last night I knew that as long as Rachael did not fall more than once she would be placed second.
    How did I know this? Was it just a lucky guess?
    Looking at Rachael's somewhat slow skating, mediocre spins and spirals after she missed her 3T I felt Julia and Fumi both skated well enough to be placed over her.
    Maybe I am wrong, I was watching a Live stream but this is all too familiar.

    I could cite many examples and I am sure you can too.

  9. #189
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Can someone please clarify something for me re: judging by reputation?

    I understand that journalists saying things like "As XYZ gets more known to international judges, her PCS will go up" can make it sound like it's judging by reputation.

    But can we also make a case that when a skater is competing internationally for a while, she starts developing her own style and improves, and therefore her PCS goes up...? (I'm using "she" but it can apply to any men, pairs, dance teams, etc.)

    Or am I just being overly optimistic about this? Very curious to know what others think.

    Thanks!

  10. #190
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Can someone please clarify something for me re: judging by reputation?

    I understand that journalists saying things like "As XYZ gets more known to international judges, her PCS will go up" can make it sound like it's judging by reputation.

    But can we also make a case that when a skater is competing internationally for a while, she starts developing her own style and improves, and therefore her PCS goes up...? (I'm using "she" but it can apply to any men, pairs, dance teams, etc.)

    Or am I just being overly optimistic about this? Very curious to know what others think.

    Thanks!
    A good question and I hope a few others will offer opinions.

    Going back to Akiko and COC it does not take a leap of faith to see her scores could have been higher, particularly in her SP.
    Now she has won the Gold medal at COC.
    It would not be unusual for her pcs to go up next week at SC - even if she does not skate as well as she did at COC. Go figure, but this is very likely to happen.

    Is it fair or shady - or by design - who knows. One thing for sure though is that her reputation will probably come into play. It will even be mentioned and written about by journalists. It's just the way it is.

    Going back to Rachael last night - I said "reputation - but I should have said "politics."

    It felt political that a top USA lady would be given the benefit of the doubt at SA.

    I don't think this is so hard to see. I also don't think it is a plot against USA skaters. But it does make me doubt that Vancouver will be judged without politics and reputations playing tooooo bigggg of a factor.

    And to judges who are posters here - who work at regionals, at junior and novice events I certainly don't mean to imply any of you are crooked. I admit there is always a degree of "human emotion" involved and that most judges are fair minded and love skating.
    But something seems to happen as we get to the elite level and biggest events. I wish it was more fair......that is all I am saying.





    T

  11. #191
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The PCS components tend to combine dissimilar items, plus they run suspiciously like each other competition to competition, even if the skater in question performs poorly. In dance, the Performance component contains both "Projects strongly" and "has good carriage/posture". These items have nothing to do with one another and there are wonderful skaters with exquisite carriage who can't project out to the audience at all. And there are great performers with relatively poor carriage/posture. How does one assign the Performance component to such competitors, other than by reputation or by indexing off a better defined component?

    If the PCS definition is flawed, the judging that results from it will drift into the area of reputation judging-which is where the Artistic or Presentation component used to be judged in the days of 6.0.

    One is not really an artist, evidently, until the world has already acknowledged you as an artist.

    The youngsters suffer from this side of it.

    And if you're already an acknowledged artist, if you paint a toilet seat and hang it on the wall, it will be called art.

    Plush's programs, which have virtually no transitions, get good transitions scores.

  12. #192
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    I changed channels as soon as Evan finished and was surprised to see the outcome. I didn't expect to see Amodio so close to Schultheiss. Even though I enjoy Adrian a lot, I thought Amodio skated much better. He got dinged, dinged and more dinged.

    As for Ryan - whoa. The power of the quad.

    Verner - it was great to see him come back - almost - from his illness. When he's on that guy has everything and is a joy to watch. (I hope he ditches that SP costume, though.)

    I love Shawn Sawyer's FP but didn't think he skated it as well as last year. But I'm happy he medalled.

    Quite amazing to see two Mozart medleys on the podium. Classy!

    The thing about Evan, I finally realized, is that he skates like he's banging a fist on the table. There's no letup - just power, power, power -- too much testosterone for me.

    But Beethoven's Fifth? Poor Brandon. Even Plushy couldn't pull that one off. Only Yagudin, maybe.

  13. #193
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Ryan-the power of 2 quads, not to mention the power of charm and the ability to project it to an audience. Ryan is particularly charming in a small venue, like the Lake Placid rink.

    BTW, the implied pun in Ryan's program is cute. He has characterized himself this year as "Going for Broke" so his LP is actually "Going for Baroque" which is why the Baroque in the title even though Mozart isn't exactly Baroque. although some of his music was admittedly inspired by Baroque compositions.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-15-2009 at 11:52 AM.

  14. #194
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    ^^^
    They are indeed, human! with all the eccentricities that go with beiing human.
    I believe the CoP has taken care of any sort of cheating the best it can with its constant drawings for judges and placing some of them in SPs only, or compulsory dance and original dance only.

    I'm not overwhelmed with the Tech Panel. I think judges could do the same thing if they had a monitor for closeups. I'm sure they have the same knowledge of figure skating as the Tech Panels. Of course, the fear of an outcry from the more knowledgeable fans would undermine the ISU if they showed the jump landings from a monitor on the Jumbothon. (They carefully show some selectively.) So, in addition to identifying judges, secrecy prevails in questionable elements.

    Until such time when the ISU is comfortable with the sporting fan, we have to accept these forbidden areas of figure skating judges despite no other sport has such restrictions for the public. Sad, no?

  15. #195
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Ryan-the power of 2 quads, not to mention the power of charm and the ability to project it to an audience. Ryan is particularly charming in a small venue, like the Lake Placid rink.

    BTW, the implied pun in Ryan's program is cute. He has characterized himself this year as "Going for Broke" so his LP is actually "Going for Baroque" which is why the Baroque in the title even though Mozart isn't exactly Baroque. although some of his music was admittedly inspired by Baroque compositions.
    Good observations. A better name for Ryan's charming program might be "Classical Gas," although that old gem from the 60's is nothing like Mozart either.......

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