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Thread: Ladies SP Saturday Nov 14th 7:00 p.m. EST:

  1. #286
    Custom Title MikiAndoFan#1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    some of us take the Sport seriously and don't worry about favorites, or trolls, and YuNa is simply the best this season, as well as Nobi. We will learn more about Evan in SC as well as Akiko.

    Constructive criticisms beat out boorish criticisms. n'est pas?
    Oui, monsieur.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    YuNa is a phenoneman. She's breaking her own records. Is there an adjective to describe her whole persona as well as her skating?

    I have to say that I take back my remarks about Rachael's jazzy SP in China. She was marvelous in L.Placid. Her one mistake was that second jump in the combo where she landed on the back part of her blade which made her fall backwards. That's not an opinion. It's the Law of Physics. If the USFS does not send her to Vancouver, they will be making a huge mistake. I love Mirai and Caroline but realistically, it's Rachael.

    ...

    I'm sorry for her fans, but Emily had no redeeming features in that SP. It would have been better if she had gone to Sectionals before Nats. As of now, she should not be one of the chosen 2 to go to Vancouver.

    ...
    Yu Na Rachael also for continuing to give it all she's got. Agree she should be going to Vancouver.

    Emily, well, at least she wasn't dead last in the SP, but personally I would have liked the last-minute slot to go to, say, Musademba (sp?). I guess TPTB thought Emily was the closest "name" they had to draw on, but we really sent a weak overall ladies team USA. I'm sure I sound like I'm dumping on Em but I was really afraid this would happen, she hasn't been top tier for several seasons now and really wasn't prepared as far as technique and training to be competitive.

    Of course Emily has the mental aspect down -- always cheerful when performing, and that can carry one far, but still I would have liked to see a stronger "hometown" team. Like MM has posted before, SA used to be an international event in its own right before it became a Grand Prix event, so I guess I have a bias to wanting the whole event to shine, as well. But Yu Na certainly shone! and everyone there can say they saw a World Record setting performance.

  3. #288
    Waiting for on-ice perfection.
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    Hi, I'm new to the forum

    First, putting aside all discussion of UR (I don't think I'm qualified to talk about the technical elements of skating yet), I have to say that Yu-na's performance was stunning . I didn't watch every skater perform, but from what I saw today, I can really see why people claim that Kim's in a class of her own (but of course SA is a weaker field). I have no doubt that she will perform exceptionally in the GPF and the upcoming Olympic Games (with the best of luck, to win the OGM).

    There are people out there who doubt that her streak of excellence will last, but my opinion differs because I think what she delivers in each competition is exactly what she has to offer, if not a lesser version of it. The large margin of victory represents an actual discrepancy in talent. Her scores are well-deserved not only because she's an amazing skater (talented, fast, expressive, musical, etc.), but also because the Kim "Dream Team" (Orser, Kim& Wilson) knows how to milk the CoP and I see no fault in that at all. They're probably the first top-skater team that fully comprehends the newly-instituted system and uses it to their advantage. That's their winning strategy.

    I just admire Kim's ability to cope with all the pressure. She carries the entire sport of figure skating in her country, and fans now take WRs for granted. People's standards for her are cruelly high, as evident in people's response to this recent performance. There are people who think this was just not good enough, simply subpar, although Kim was scintillating. True, she was more nervous and tense in this performance than she was in TEB, but this is a girl who can't even stroll the streets in her home country because everyone knows her and won't leave her alone. This is an athlete who has to deal with a Korean media that clamors for new WRs, huge margin wins and impeccable performances. The pressure is staggering. Remember, she's only 19, and, given all these conditions, I'm amazed that she rarely falters or falls. I always get the feeling that people are too harsh on her. We should give credit to everything she does amazingly. Until recently (she moved to Canada right before the 2007~2008 season), Kim didn't even have a proper environment in which to train, and thus I admire her even more.

    As an "uber" Yu-na fan, I also can't help but be dismayed by all the negative PR the lot's getting. Oh well. It's not like I can control every single Yu-na "bot" out there.

    I sincerely love her performances, but love her even more as an individual. I would never say that Kim's pretentious. To me, she always comes across as a sincere, diligent, humble and sweet individual. I once heard a judge say that Kim is the only top-skater who faithfully practices the fundamentals. While other skaters proceed to master difficult jumps, even greater technical hurdles, Kim tries to perfect what's already in her arsenal (thus, her awe-inspiring GOE).

    Sorry my reply's so long I got carried away.
    Last edited by dlgpffps; 11-14-2009 at 11:12 PM.

  4. #289
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    Here's the thing about underrotations. So many fans forget that underrotation can occur at both the entry and the exit to a jump. For example, on a toe loop, a lot of skaters cheat by prerotating their torso or the blade prior to takeoff. If you go back and look at the underrotation deductions for otherwise stellar jumpers like Miki Ando, it's usually because her torso is facing backwards at the point of takeoff.

    I think that's why fans get into such a tizzy about underrotation calls. Because they're focusing only on the landings, they think that judges are making the calls inconsistently or (worse) based on favoritism. In fact, the underrotation calls are usually very accurate (the GOE scores a little less so) when you factor in the entry.

    These accusations of favoritism are typically directed against Yuna's 3T jump because her blade sometimes doesn't land at a 180 degree angle to her takeoff. As many people have pointed out, however, a less-than-180 degree rotation does NOT constitute an underrotation. The reason she is not called for underrotations is because her takeoff technique is so good. She actually uses the toepick (and not the blade, like SO many skaters do), and her torso is at no more than 90 degrees as she launches into the air.

    Quibble about the GOEs if you like. But the underrotations are not really up for debate.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    Her scores are well-deserved not only because she's an amazing skater (talented, fast, expressive, musical, etc.), but also because the Kim "Dream Team" (Orser, Kim& Wilson) knows how to milk the CoP and I see no fault in that at all. They're probably the first top-skater team that fully comprehends the newly-instituted system and uses it to their advantage. That's their winning strategy.
    Sasha Cohen, with both John Nicks and Tatiana Tarasova, milked the crap out of the CoP. While she didn't win, Sasha's team figured out how to use the code to her abilities and make up for her technical limitations. The US skaters should have taken note instead of trying to become the Next Whoever.

    Eta: Welcome to the board!
    Last edited by DarkestMoon; 11-14-2009 at 10:52 PM.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
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    Great post. Yes, you can be a uber-fan without being a bot.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    Sasha Cohen, with both John Nicks and Tatiana Tarasova, milked the crap out of the CoP. While she didn't win, Sasha's team figured out how to use the code to her abilities and make up for her technical limitations.
    That's true. She always stayed in the running even though she had weaker jumping than other competitors in her league.

    The US skaters should have taken note instead of trying to become the Next Whoever.
    I dunno...I just think we have a rather underwhelming crop of skaters right now, not too much talent (or the talent is undermined by faulty technique, or whatever). But I wonder whether it is more that we suck, or the international competition is that great. But Yuna is beating the pants off even the other top international competitors so the Americans need not feel so bad.
    Last edited by R.D.; 11-14-2009 at 10:55 PM.

  8. #293
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    I would argue Alissa Czisny knows how to milk the CoP. She's been skating for so long and has excellent spins, spirals, and emotion. She won nationals last year after skating a FS where she only landed 3 clean triples (granted she won the SP and had a substantial lead) because her PCS score was huge. Technically, she isn't as strong as some of the other US ladies, but when she manages to land most of her jumps her PCS scores allow her to be at the top. Her jumps seem to be improving a lot though, I'm hoping she makes it to the Olympics! She seems like such a sweet girl.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    I dunno...I just think we have a rather underwhelming crop of skaters right now, not too much talent (or the talent is undermined by faulty technique, or whatever). But I wonder how much is it that we suck, or the international competition is that great. But Yuna is beating the pants off even the other top international competitors so the Americans need not feel so bad.
    Talent is never a problem in the US. IMHO, Having patience and learning (or relearning) technique is the problem. I firmly believe that being a "technician" has a stigma attached to it and that within US skating, artistry is so heavily emphasized, technique itself is overlooked. Yes, many technicians have been "bleh" artists; Tonya, Irina, Midori, etc. However, a bunch of skaters were forgiven for faulty technique because they have the artistry until the CoP came in or the fact that growth spurts got in the way of their plans, most notably Sasha, Mirai and Caroline. That isn't to say having artistry is bad because artistry is 50% of the sport but technique and basics should be propped up.

    The media was so confused on what was happening last season and they needed former champions to explain (IE: Kristi saying that US is in a transition phase). I think Kristi is right but I also think when you look deeply, the ladies barely have secure technique and basics to rely on.

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I would argue Alissa Czisny knows how to milk the CoP. She's been skating for so long and has excellent spins, spirals, and emotion. She won nationals last year after skating a FS where she only landed 3 clean triples (granted she won the SP and had a substantial lead) because her PCS score was huge. Technically, she isn't as strong as some of the other US ladies, but when she manages to land most of her jumps her PCS scores allow her to be at the top. Her jumps seem to be improving a lot though, I'm hoping she makes it to the Olympics! She seems like such a sweet girl.
    Ooo... that's a can of worms right there. Bek is going to come down on you with iron hammer of Odin over Alissa's win.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    Sasha Cohen, with both John Nicks and Tatiana Tarasova, milked the crap out of the CoP. While she didn't win, Sasha's team figured out how to use the code to her abilities and make up for her technical limitations. The US skaters should have taken note instead of trying to become the Next Whoever.

    Eta: Welcome to the board!
    Ahh sorry You see, I'm practically new to the figure skating world (Kim drew me in two years ago), so I don't know much about Cohen. I was hoping to see her perform in TEB and SA because I heard so much about her, but, well, you know what happened. I was rather disappointed. I guess I'll have to wait until Nationals. Before I make any extreme comments (e.g. "best team ever") I'll make sure I know my stuff well. Thanks!

  12. #297
    Brazilian Eurotrash beep_beep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
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    I'm absolutely sure that the vast majority of Yu-Na's fans think like you do.
    The bots are the minority, but, unfortunately, they cause a lot of distress with their lack of sense and agressive posts.

    This was a great post. Welcome to the forum.

  13. #298
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    She deserved it.

    Quote Originally Posted by beep_beep View Post
    Should I bring this up? The 3T looked kinda UR on the slo-mo for my untrained eye
    You think that looked UR? umm.. I don't think so.
    If her jump is UR, other ladies skaters' jumps are all UR.
    YUNA is perfect.

    <^^ deleted last sentence. it doesn't seem to be polite. >
    Last edited by ahminc; 11-15-2009 at 12:08 AM.

  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahminc View Post
    You think that looked UR? umm.. I don't think so.
    If her jump is UR, other ladies skaters' jumps are all UR.
    YUNA is perfect.
    You shouldn't be so overly critical.
    Dear god, you joining just to leave this comment just proves RD and I right. Difference of opinions, no big deal as long as we're polite here.

    Also, yes a numerous loops at the back end of 3-3s look like that and gets URed. Just look at Miki Ando, girl can't catch a break!

    You see, I'm practically new to the figure skating world (Kim drew me in two years ago), so I don't know much about Cohen. I was hoping to see her perform in TEB and SA because I heard so much about her, but, well, you know what happened. I was rather disappointed. I guess I'll have to wait until Nationals. Before I make any extreme comments (e.g. "best team ever") I'll make sure I know my stuff well. Thanks!
    You'll have a lot of fun learning the sport and all and trust me, that's not a extreme comment. There have been worst.
    Last edited by DarkestMoon; 11-14-2009 at 11:16 PM.

  15. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    Also, yes a numerous loops at the back end of 3-3s look like that and gets URed. Just look at Miki Ando, girl can't catch a break!
    The URs are usually accurate, once you take prerotations into account. Go back to some of Miki's UR downgrades and look at her entries; you'll see my point.

    Went on at some length about this in my earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjl View Post
    Here's the thing about underrotations. So many fans forget that underrotation can occur at both the entry and the exit to a jump. For example, on a toe loop, a lot of skaters cheat by prerotating their torso or the blade prior to takeoff. If you go back and look at the underrotation deductions for otherwise stellar jumpers like Miki Ando, it's usually because her torso is facing backwards at the point of takeoff.

    I think that's why fans get into such a tizzy about underrotation calls. Because they're focusing only on the landings, they think that judges are making the calls inconsistently or (worse) based on favoritism. In fact, the underrotation calls are usually very accurate (the GOE scores a little less so) when you factor in the entry.

    These accusations of favoritism are typically directed against Yuna's 3T jump because her blade sometimes doesn't land at a 180 degree angle to her takeoff. As many people have pointed out, however, a less-than-180 degree rotation does NOT constitute an underrotation. The reason she is not called for underrotations is because her takeoff technique is so good. She actually uses the toepick (and not the blade, like SO many skaters do), and her torso is at no more than 90 degrees as she launches into the air.

    Quibble about the GOEs if you like. But the underrotations are not really up for debate.

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