Why Zero Points and Invalid element?

Joesitz said:

I think we have to conclude that different directional jumps are two separate jumps with the same definition or one jump in two parts,

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We are talking about spins here not jumps. Rachel did a difficult spin in both directions and received zero points because the centers were too far apart for the rules. By the way what is CoP Code of points?

gkelly said:

But it's always done with a change of foot, so the change-of-foot guidelines do apply for that change.


Here's Ilia Klimkin changing direction with camel spins pre-IJS, at 1:29; the centers are further apart there, but the motion is pretty continuous.

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Ok, now to me what Ilia did there was really a spin in both directions but like Rachael's, the centers we far apart. Joanie's were close thogther but the second part was not much of a spin, it looked more like twizzle in a footwork sequence.

What bothers me about these rules is that what Rachael did was worth zero points even though the whole thing was difficult from beginning to end.

You guys probably thinnk I am an IJS, rules, CoP... basher. That is not my intention. I just don't like to seeing someone do something that deserves recognition only to get nothing. Not even a little teeny tiny bit of recognition for somthing I thought was great. Zero points!

Do you really believe that topics do not change in these threads?

Joesitz said:

Do you really believe that topics do not change in these threads?

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I apologize,
I re-read my comment and it apears harsh although I did not mean it that way.

I just did not understand why you have been talking about jumps when I was talking about spins. I was confused Because I asked a question about spins you appeared to relply that "different directional jums are two seperate jumps" I could not make the connection to Spins in both directions. Were you replying to someone else?

Just wondering:
I have heard that skaters can discuss their score with a judge panel after the competition? For example ask why they got downgrades on an element. If that is so, I suppose Rachael has questioned her no-points-spin?

Rachael was quite positive about why it was downgraded. I would expect that she talked with the judges.

A number of skaters, particularly the dancers, have said that they had discussed levels with judges.

Skaters should discuss the levels with the technical specialist or technical controller, since it's the tech panel who determine levels.

Most judges are not trained in how to determine the levels, and that is not where there attention is during a program. They're busy focusing on the GOEs and components.

(Technical controllers are also judges, but they're going to watch the program in very different ways depending which role they're fulfilling at the time.)

Skaters should talk with the judges about GOEs, and especially about the program components -- e.g., how could they raise their transitions score or performance/execution score.

gkelly said:

But it's always done with a change of foot, so the change-of-foot guidelines do apply for that change.

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I am not trying to be rude or mean spirited. My comment below is in the spirit of healthy debate. Also, I am in no way am proclaiming to be an expert.

It appears to me after looking at four different ISU documents that "change of foot" is not the same as a "spin in both directions" They are talked about in two separate sections of the rules and guides.

I think we are making an assumption if we say that because you change feet means it is a change foot spin and those rules apply. Not sure if this is the best example however a skater is spinning while they twizzle but that does not make it a spin.

Here is my opinion for what it is worth, which is not much

I personally believe a spin in both direction is a completely different feature than a change of foot and are not at all related (even though you change your foot)

A good change foot requires, as it should, spinning on or close to the same spot after change. It would be nice if the rules stated the max distance rather than leaving it in general terms. On the other hand that could lead to people bringing rulers out there and then it would be like watching "figures"

A good spin in both directions should not have that requirement. It is more important that the flow is maintained with no steps, turns, or bobbles in between.