Lutai arrested for car theft

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

antmanb said:
And if certain rules were put in place about reporting of arrests, then that would do the trick. In this country the media has to tread very carefully when reporting arrests etc so as not to unfairly prejudice the public who may be called upon to be on a jury and make a ruling on the crime.

The tabloids always are worse, but i'm not sure what it does to point that out, other than allow you to be extra condescending

Ant

Fair enough and the tabloid comment was directed to several posters. It does appear to be a non-factor and even irrelevant to Lutai's case because he just isn't important enough in the USA to warrant any coverage.

I think my points about the internet were fair and as far as I have seen it is the only place where Lutai's case is getting any coverage.

Our tabloids can be brutal but the truth is we don't have nearly as many as they do in other countries. That of course is because most Americans are unable to read

snowflake · Nov 20, 2009

janetfan said:
A skating fan might also refer to Parick Chan's "alleged quad" meaning there might be talk about it but he has yet to prove he can do it in competition.

Also, Plushy's alleged transitions, Evan's alleged musicality, and so forth.

or olympic judges' alleged cheating

Dodhiyel · Nov 20, 2009

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/509843.html?nav=5008

:scowl:

Andrey is a "stranger in a strange land" without enough understanding of the local language. At the rate things are going now, I wonder how many strangers will look forward to competing at Lake Placid in the future.

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

snowflake said:
or olympic judges' alleged cheating

Sorry, but that would appear to many to be an "incorrect" usuage of the word "alleged."

Dodhiyel · Nov 20, 2009

antmanb said:
But equally the point that you are making has missed the "innocent until proven guilty part" your post presuposes that he was (a) drunk and (b) stole a car. Until a jury convicts him of those actions it is wrong to refer to him without any doubt as having done (or committed) those actions (or crimes).....Ant

Thank you for your post, Antman. I think it was much needed. :agree:

Ptichka · Nov 20, 2009

antmanb said:
And if certain rules were put in place about reporting of arrests, then that would do the trick. In this country the media has to tread very carefully when reporting arrests etc so as not to unfairly prejudice the public who may be called upon to be on a jury and make a ruling on the crime.

Precisely! Our "free" media can't go into a hospital and start filming patients in their hospital gowns (if someone takes a home video and leaks it to the press - then it's a different story, of course, it becomes fair game). Same logic should apply to suspects.

Hsuhs · Nov 20, 2009

janetfan said:
Given a choice between this type of government regulation I have to say I greatly prefer the gossip and occassional humiliation an alleged criminal may have to "put up with" as opposed to limiting freedom.

What's with this Believing in public humiliation business? Does it even work? Have crime rates dropped in the US because of it? Does humiliation have to be a part of punushment?

gkelly · Nov 20, 2009

Hsuhs said:
What's with this Believing in public humiliation business? Does it even work?

Well, it's gone out of fashion as an official punishment, but there's certainly a long history behind it:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Public_humiliation#encyclopedia

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

Hsuhs said:
What's with this Believing in public humiliation business? Does it even work? Have crime rates dropped in the US because of it? Does humiliation have to be a part of punushment?

That depends. Please define "punishment"

Humiliation is perhaps more easily defined but it appears there are cultural differences about this too.

Not sure if we are on the same page about this - the definitions I mean.

I am not in law enforcement and don't know whether more vigorous enforcement and harsher penalties (including mandatory cuffing and name/pic in the paper in many parts of the USA) is working or not when it comes to DUI arrests.

By why not continue. Maybe you don't know anybody whose family was victimized by a drunken driver . I do. I have very little - actually zero tolerance for such behavior.
The Lutai case sounds bizarre - the facts are not really availabe - and that is why I hope they let him go back home ASAP.

dorispulaski · Nov 20, 2009

Not to mention tarring & feathering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarring_and_feathering
and being ridden out of town on a rail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_the_rail

Wicked · Nov 20, 2009

In DC we have a charge called UUV (unauthorized use of a vehicle) that is used for people who steal a car to just go riding around in and then dump it, aka joy riding. The purpose of this charge is to avoid charging people with the more serious offense of car theft. It's usually used for dumb kids who decided to do something stupid so they will not be charged with a felony. It's also an easier charge to get a conviction on. I don't know all the facts, but it sounds to me like this is what Andrei might have been doing and is colossaly bad judgment on his part. I hope if he did it he is punished by the legal system and allowed to resume his skating career. I would like to hear his side of things before leaping to any conclusions. He is innocent until proven guilty. And yes, I do work for defense lawyers.

Dodhiyel · Nov 20, 2009

I consider my most recent post but one on this thread inadequate, because I did not mention that this link goes to the newest article on the Adirondack Daily Enterprise site, an article in which some new, deeply disturbing facts appear.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/509843.html?nav=5008

This link connects directly to that new article. I was so upset by the article when I first read it today, that I simply put the link up, without explaining that it is not the same old article as we had already seen. This one has details about the surprising behaviour of some persons of authority in this matter, which I hope everyone interested in this case will read.

There is so much more I should like to say about all this, but I am trying to keep my posts short. Please read the article.

Hsuhs · Nov 20, 2009

janetfan said:
By why not continue. Maybe you don't know anybody whose family was victimized by a drunken driver . I do. I have very little - actually zero tolerance for such behavior.

I do know families victimized by a drunken driver, and I have zero tolerance for many kinds of criminal behavior, I just don't enjoy watching ppl being publicly humiliated, because I don't think it's necessary or should be this way.

Send criminals to jail, get them incarcerated if proven guilty, let them do their time. That's enough of a punishment already. At least it's seen as enough in many countries.

It's not about being uninformed, or being Lutai's fan, or (not) having met victims of crime, or not being familiar with American history, or living in China (or being a 'lesser person' in all other imaginable ways), it's about witnessing the system in work and disagreeing with it. Is it really so hard to accept? Without a 'but'. Looks like it.

AFAIK, Lutai hasn't arrived in Russia yet.

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

Hsuhs said:
I do know families victimized by a drunken driver, and I have zero tolerance for many kinds of criminal behavior, I just don't enjoy watching ppl being publicly humiliated, because I don't think it's necessary or should be this way.

Send criminals to jail, get them incarcerated if proven guilty, let them do their time. That's enough of a punishment already. At least it's seen as enough in many countries.

It's not about being uninformed, or being Lutai's fan, or (not) having met victims of crime, or not being familiar with American history, or living in China (or being a 'lesser person' in all other imaginable ways), it's about witnessing the system in work and disagreeing with it. Is it really so hard to accept? Without a 'but'. Looks like it.

AFAIK, Lutai hasn't arrived in Russia yet.

Your points are all reasonable I see no reason to argue this point. Let's chalk it up to "cultural differences."

I do hope Lutai gets home soon. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. There is probably no court tomorrow so he may have to wait until Monday for another hearing.

Or as his attorney said - he could just try and leave and see what happens.

Medusa · Nov 20, 2009

Hsuhs said:
I do know families victimized by a drunken driver, and I have zero tolerance for many kinds of criminal behavior, I just don't enjoy watching ppl being publicly humiliated, because I don't think it's necessary or should be this way.

Send criminals to jail, get them incarcerated if proven guilty, let them do their time. That's enough of a punishment already. At least it's seen as enough in many countries.

It's not about being uninformed, or being Lutai's fan, or (not) having met victims of crime, or not being familiar with American history, or living in China (or being a 'lesser person' in all other imaginable ways), it's about witnessing the system in work and disagreeing with it. Is it really so hard to accept? Without a 'but'. Looks like it.

Amen to everything Hsush says here. She is hitting the nail on the head.

How this is a cultural difference, I can't understand. Unless someone wants to say that "public humiliation" is a trait of US-American society, just like death penalty.

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

Medusa said:
Amen to everything Hsush says here. She is hitting the nail on the head.

How this is a cultural difference, I can't understand. Unless someone wants to say that "public humiliation" is a trait of US-American society, just like death penalty.

Yes, there is an intentional thought to humiliate drunken drivers in many parts of the USA.
This includes mandatory cuffs at the time of the arrest and no secrecy from the press.

We don't want to celebrate or pamper these people - just the opposite.
We also don't celebrate child molesters either although I can think of a few who are treated like heroes in Europe because they are celebrities.

We have many bad traits,,,,,,,,but hey, nobody is perfect and it is not so easy trying to lead the way in such a dysfunctional world.:yes:

I don't agree with either you or Hsuhs but I have no problem realizing your views are different and just as good as mine and maybe better.

Different strokes for different folks

pippa · Nov 20, 2009

Just to be clear, the fact that prisoners wear manacles when taken to court has nothing to do with "humiliating" them. There were a number of cases in recent years in which prisoners being transported to and from court grabbed guards' guns and killed people, attempted escape or even threw themselves out of courthouse windows and killed themselves. Each time it happened, there was an outcry that the prisoner was not restrained to prevent the tragedy.

As a result, regulations have been tightened in many places and prisoners are kept in restraints when being escorted to and from court. It isn't about humilitation, it's about safety. Some of the prisoners who harmed themselves or others were in jail for non-violent offenses, so authorities cannot assume that anyone is not going to do something dangerous.

Bennett · Nov 20, 2009

pippa said:
Just to be clear, the fact that prisoners wear manacles when taken to court has nothing to do with "humiliating" them. There were a number of cases in recent years in which prisoners being transported to and from court grabbed guards' guns and killed people, attempted escape or even threw themselves out of courthouse windows and killed themselves. Each time it happened, there was an outcry that the prisoner was not restrained to prevent the tragedy.

As a result, regulations have been tightened in many places and prisoners are kept in restraints when being escorted to and from court. It isn't about humilitation, it's about safety. Some of the prisoners who harmed themselves or others were in jail for non-violent offenses, so authorities cannot assume that anyone is not going to do something dangerous.

The "humiliation" seems to be more to do with the fact that it is aired.

Medusa · Nov 20, 2009

Bennett said:
The "humiliation" seems to be more to do with the fact that it is aired.

Exactly. I don't care whether they use ropes or chains or silk bands to tie them up. It's about privacy. And not just his privacy, but what about families of suspects? They really haven't done anything, but as a sibling or parent that kind of public handling of criminal cases can really hurt.

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

Bennett said:
The "humiliation" seems to be more to do with the fact that it is aired.

That is a good point but perfectly legal under current New York state laws.

Out of curiosity I did a google check this afternoon and found exactly 4 articles published in US newspapers. One was actually an online blog.

All four articles were the same as the original Reuters article first posted here.

I did not see any pics except for one which showed Lutai skating.

The "Adirondack" paper serves an area than is sometimes referred to as the "Siberia of America." There are probably more bears than people that live in the readership area of this paper.

Do you think the bears are reading this story?

Who in America even knows about this besides skating fans and people in the teenie weenie village of Lake Placid?

If it was a "big story" and all over the news the Govenor of New York would have commented. Or one of New York's two US Senators. Even one of the Clinton's might have commented since they are both involved in NY politics.

The humiliation factor may be real but it is primarily between Lutai and the few people - maybe 12 or so - in Lake Placid involved in handling his case.

Oh, I forgot to mention GS posters!

I don't buy into this "humiliation factor as being very widespread or to having even the slightest importance regarding Lutai's release.

If it offends posters here - well, sorry, but why not look at the bigger picture. This young man could have been facing a year or more in jail. It appears he will get very preferential treatment.. I hope he does get to go home in the next week.

Lutai arrested for car theft

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