Ladies SP 13:15 pm Eastern Time Friday, November 20 | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Ladies SP 13:15 pm Eastern Time Friday, November 20

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Well, IMO, the only edge Cohen has ever had on Rochette are her spins. Aren't opinions great?

Spirals???? Rochette's spirals don't even compare to Cohen's. And yes opinions are great because what I'm about to say is totally subjective ... but Cohen's artistry is head and shoulders above Rochette's. I liked her footwork better too but maybe that's just choreography, I'm not the best judge.

Edit: sorry, just realized that you did say Cohen's flexibility was better than Rochette, which I guess means her spirals, or at least the position of her spirals. But that's just where we just won't agree because to me flexibility is important.
 
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museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Spirals???? Rochette's spirals don't even compare to Cohen's. And yes opinions are great because what I'm about to say is totally subjective ... but Cohen's artistry is head and shoulders above Rochette's. I liked her footwork better too but maybe that's just choreography, I'm not the best judge.

Spirals are about way more than just flexibility. Rochette has far greater security in her edges than Cohen, plus I think Joannie skates faster than Sasha. Speed and security of edge are more important than flexibility in my eyes.
 

DarkestMoon

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Spirals???? Rochette's spirals don't even compare to Cohen's. And yes opinions are great because what I'm about to say is totally subjective ... but Cohen's artistry is head and shoulders above Rochette's. I liked her footwork better too but maybe that's just choreography, I'm not the best judge.

More specifically spin and spiral positions. Cohen only had the positions on spins and spirals. She is a faster spinner but of course, over time, the quality of her spinning went down. Rochette made not have the positions for the spirals, but OMG! Spirals is also a demonstration of basic skating. Rochette's edges in her spirals is far superior to Cohen.
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
I didn't get to watch the event (at work), but could someone tell me what happened on her axel? People are saying "toe axel" but I'm not 100% sure what that means...

It wasn't her axel - that jump was great. It was on her double toe loop. A toe axel is when you jump forward off of your toe pick.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
"Toe axel" refers to the double toe loop at the end of her jump combination. The take off was so far turned forward, it looks like she stuck her toe in the ice and did an Axel as opposed to a double toe loop (a knock that Asada has gotten prior that she seems to have fixed). This is a guaranteed downgrade.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
The layback was not. Were you watching?



Appropriately giving personality to the music is part of the PCS, however.
Isn't personality a VERY subjective thing to begin with?
As for use of the music, you may not see it, but for me Joannie is one of the best ladies who actually listens and feels the music, and interprets nicely. Her expression is not as extroverted as Kim's, (for me, not as "put on"), but she "gets" the character and presents the music naturally. There's attention to details and I think her use of arms to express music is some of the best in the field. You may not see it, but it doesn't mean everybody doesn't see it.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Spirals???? Rochette's spirals don't even compare to Cohen's. And yes opinions are great because what I'm about to say is totally subjective ... but Cohen's artistry is head and shoulders above Rochette's. I liked her footwork better too but maybe that's just choreography, I'm not the best judge.
According to YOU .To me, Cohen never had any real artistry.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Let's stop the nonsense right now.

Rochette's Spirals are NOT as good as Sasha's.

Sasha achieves positions and body line with her Spirals that nobody else in the World can match.

I would love to see Rochette's edge quality while doing a full-split, back-stop Charlotte.

*Hint* - it wouldn't be as good as Cohen's and she wouldn't have nearly as good of a position either.

Sasha demonstrated very good edge control in her Spirals. The way she could turn from a back edge to a forward edge in full split position was another trademark move that exhibited this.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
According to YOU .To me, Cohen never had any real artistry.

Well, yes, I did very clearly state that was according to ME. I didn't say it was a fact. anyway, getting off topic so I'll leave it there.
 
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newvie

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
It was great to see Joannie's clean SP. By the way, I was amazed by pple saying her spirals have speed. Even though I like Joannie, I found her spirals were quite slow in her performance of today. Even the (Canadian) commentator of CBC pointed out that she was slow on her spirals. I hope she'll improve on this point by the GPF or the Olympic games.

Well, anyway, a lot of thanks to Joannie, Akiko and Alissa for their great performances of today :agree:
 

DarkestMoon

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Let's stop the nonsense right now.

Rochette's Spirals are NOT as good as Sasha's.

Sasha achieves positions and body line with her Spirals that nobody else in the World can match.

I would love to see Rochette's edge quality while doing a full-split, back-stop Charlotte.

*Hint* - it wouldn't be as good as Cohen's and she wouldn't have nearly as good of a position either.

Sasha demonstrated very good edge control in her Spirals. The way she could turn from a back edge to a forward edge in full split position was another trademark move that exhibited this.

:rofl:

Sasha's edge quality is exactly why she would fall out of her spins. Sasha may have better lines but her edges are poor compared to Joannie's. You need not even compare Sasha to Joannie. Sasha has better spiral positions (save for the arabesque) than Michelle and variably with Shizuka, except their edges are far better. There is a reason why both Michelle and Shizuka can travel across the ice on their spirals with ease. Sasha (and several American women known for their spirals) just scrape on by. Sasha was trained to be a multidirectional skater to compensate for her weak skating skills but she barely traces on the ice. Skaters are expect to be able to skating in many directions but the tracing is important.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Congrats to Joannie, Alissa and Mirai.

What was the snarky remark that Caroline made in the K&C? My feed was lousy and I missed it.
 

SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Enough with the comparisons already!

We all know that scores can't be compared between competitions, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about 3+ seasons ago.
 

nevergonnadance

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Originally Posted by Blades of Passion
Let's stop the nonsense right now.

Rochette's Spirals are NOT as good as Sasha's.

Sasha achieves positions and body line with her Spirals that nobody else in the World can match.

I would love to see Rochette's edge quality while doing a full-split, back-stop Charlotte.

*Hint* - it wouldn't be as good as Cohen's and she wouldn't have nearly as good of a position either.

Sasha demonstrated very good edge control in her Spirals. The way she could turn from a back edge to a forward edge in full split position was another trademark move that exhibited this.

When Sasha first appeared on the scene it would be more correct to say she demonstrated very good flat control on her non-spirals. They're called a spiral because of the arc the edge describes on the ice. Sasha executed her Charlotte on her flat. She did her vertical split skid spiral on her flat.

To her credit she eventually executed both spirals on an edge, but her edges were never as powerful, smooth and fast as the best spirals. Not to mention she would still not infrequently rock back up on her flat when doing it, most notably in her skid spiral.

This was a tough one for me to figure out too because I remember reading how Irina Sluteskaya had good spirals and being all WTF because her legs were bent. Well yeah, it would have been better with a straighter leg - higher level - but her edge, control, ice coverage and speed on a couple of them were first rate.

Her edge on her charlotte was never anything to write home about (Sasha's) even when she finally did do it on an edge.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
hey lay off--zhang tried a triple triple gets downgraded but a white girl like rachel tries and falls and gets credited--biased and r" and d' is keep going on in skating
why shouldn't she get snarky-ice network made sure everyone knew about where she finished last season at skate canada--not a word about the white girls where they finished at last season gp events or sasha-or the fact they overlook their mistakes
yes i don't like it but i say zhang should sue the usfsa, isu and whoever else she can think of because SHE IS NOT GOING TO GET A FAIR SHAKE> SHE WiLL BE robbed or d against in skating- no matter what she does-clean or otherwise.
i think meissner ought to sue the usfsa to get into nationals the way they are intentionally favoring certain skaters over others.
keeps this up-lose more fans based o
n cheating, unfair judging and d and r.

i told at being of season that usfsa put zhang in teb and skate canada in a Deliberate attempt to keep her down and out of olympics and nationals and future skating--see scores and how the keep other us girls up their and overlook mistakes for them and not her. yes they and you have proven me right.
i didn't want to be-but you have.
 

cornell08

Final Flight
Joined
May 10, 2009
Congrats to Joannie, Alissa and Mirai.

What was the snarky remark that Caroline made in the K&C? My feed was lousy and I missed it.

She gave a fake smile and said "Oh well, thats life" loudly for all to hear. But it was in an incredibly sarcastic way. I love Caroline...but this has to stop...it just doesn't help her. I mean, its not like her score was criminal...perhaps its just that *certain* skaters should not have scored as high as they did, but I would say that her score is not as unreasonable as Akiko's or Mirai's. The thing is, she was still slow and although her 3-3 was better than I expected, her 3Loop was dismal! And thats an "easy" jump! Caroline, dear, the judges did not steal a 58+ score from you. She has got to learn that she can't keep doing, on and off the ice, what she has been doing.
 
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zartian

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
but for me Joannie is one of the best ladies who actually listens and feels the music, and interprets nicely. Her expression is not as extroverted as Kim's, (for me, not as "put on"), but she "gets" the character and presents the music naturally.

???

If expression is not extroverted, how can the third party know she is expressing something? If you feel she is expressive even if she does not "extrovert" it, isn't that because you're willing/ready to feel it? Aren't dancers and actors supposed to extrovert what they want to express making use of their bodies, faces and speeches?

And I don't think Yuna's expression is "put on". Hers looks quite natural (and extrovert, of course) in my eyes. She also looks like really feeling her music and express her moves on the right notes. Actually I saw those "put on" expressions from younger skaters today, those who are trying hard to develop there artistry, which was fun to watch though:laugh:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
When Sasha first appeared on the scene it would be more correct to say she demonstrated very good flat control ...

:laugh:

Darn, I missed the competition. Those who saw it, were Joannie's Choreograpy/Composition and Interpretation each really more than a full point and a quarter better thatn Alissa's?
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Passion
Let's stop the nonsense right now.

Rochette's Spirals are NOT as good as Sasha's.

Sasha achieves positions and body line with her Spirals that nobody else in the World can match.

I would love to see Rochette's edge quality while doing a full-split, back-stop Charlotte.

*Hint* - it wouldn't be as good as Cohen's and she wouldn't have nearly as good of a position either.

Sasha demonstrated very good edge control in her Spirals. The way she could turn from a back edge to a forward edge in full split position was another trademark move that exhibited this.
When Sasha first appeared on the scene it would be more correct to say she demonstrated very good flat control on her non-spirals. They're called a spiral because of the arc the edge describes on the ice. Sasha executed her Charlotte on her flat. She did her vertical split skid spiral on her flat.

To her credit she eventually executed both spirals on an edge, but her edges were never as powerful, smooth and fast as the best spirals. Not to mention she would still not infrequently rock back up on her flat when doing it, most notably in her skid spiral.

This was a tough one for me to figure out too because I remember reading how Irina Sluteskaya had good spirals and being all WTF because her legs were bent. Well yeah, it would have been better with a straighter leg - higher level - but her edge, control, ice coverage and speed on a couple of them were first rate.

Her edge on her charlotte was never anything to write home about (Sasha's) even when she finally did do it on an edge.

This is VERY enlightening for me, I have to say, so thanks so much. I've just been just as frustrated as you say you were wondering why people were getting good marks for their spirals when I couldn't see what was so great about them. So, now I have one more thing I understand better about skating. (although, i WILL say that I never minded Irina's spiral positions as much as I mind Joannie's.)
 
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