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Thread: Ladies SP 13:15 pm Eastern Time Friday, November 20

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Sasha does not scrape on by in her Spirals.

    Moreover, pressing really hard into the ice is not a sure sign of skating skills.

    Lilting edges require skill as well. Being able to flow over the ice and caress the ice without making deep tracings displays a certain ability (which isn't to say Sasha always displayed that quality).
    1. Yes she does. Sasha does not nearly have the ice coverage like that of Michelle and Shizuka.
    2. I never said the pressing hard into the ice is a sure sign of skating skills. I said the tracing is important.
    3. I didn't say lilting edges doesn't require skill.

  2. #302
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie_S View Post
    CAN'T AGREE MORE.
    Joannie did well, but 70 without even a 3-3 or a 3A? And with THAT spin and spiral? Since when 70 in the SP become so easy?
    Sorry about mentioning Mao when she didn't competing here, but her personal best in SP in the international competition (except for the WTT since it's a joke) was 69.5 in the 2006 NHK trophy with her Nocturne. Just compare those two programs.
    You can't compare marking from different competitions especially ones that were three years ago! Last year at World's Joannie received a 67 in the short program. Is it that unrealistic to increase by three points?

    Are you suggesting that Joannie received this score because the event was in Canada? If this is what you are suggesting don't you think you would have to apply that logic to Mao since that event was held in Japan? I guess she didn't deserve that score either.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    long time listener, and i just have a few things to say.
    - joannie deserved to have the highest score, while alissa did well she skates pretty slowly and does not land her jumps with as much bounce and spring as joannie.
    -all the asian girls got robbed. mirai was so much better than lepisto, and although akiko and caroline made mistakes, judging by the huge scores joannie and alissa got, they all should have been significantly higher. i thought mirai's performance was on par with alissa, maybe a couple points lower for pcs, but not 8.
    -i think the judges are basing their scores off looks. let's give all the pretty skinny white girls huge scores....i see no other rational for lepisto's score

    another thing i'm worried about is alissa. if she wins/medals here i'm wondering if it might mean she has peaked too soon in the season. in 2005 she won silver at SA and gold at SC then went to the GPF and finished last, then to nationals and finished 7th and lost her chance to go to the olympics. if she continues to skate the way she is now, i feel like she will probably make the olympic team (her and rachael - unless sasha decides to petition) but if she does her whole pressure meltdown like she has done at both worlds, i'm afraid she might succomb to her nerves do poorly at the olympics. i'm interested to see how she does tomorrow...usually she delivers one great program and one shaky one, maybe she'll surprise us and go clean tomorrow too!
    Can we stop with the skin-color referencing? While I think Lepisto's score is boggling, Lepisto has got more going for her than Kiira Korpi.

    Alissa would benefit by attacking her jumps. Sometimes, she looks so timid and shrinks into herself.

  4. #304
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    I read some posters say that scores are inflating, getting higher and higher over the years. If this is the case, why is that? are skaters getting better and better with COP? are there more and more talented skaters? Or are judges getting more and more generous because of any changes in rules (I feel that rules are getting more and more strict and harsh though; but they might give more GOEs)? Aren't there any limits to the inflation?

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    You can't compare marking from different competitions especially ones that were three years ago! Last year at World's Joannie received a 67 in the short program. Is it that unrealistic to increase by three points?

    Are you suggesting that Joannie received this score because the event was in Canada? If this is what you are suggesting don't you think you would have to apply that logic to Mao since that event was held in Japan? I guess she didn't deserve that score either.
    That's what people has been suggesting since last season. It seems so inconceivable that someone can do well without a ratified 3-3. Even if it was inflation, christ, Joannie is not the first person to get one and it's not nearly as egregious as people are making it sound like. She's not breaking records, folks, nor is that lead that big. The tech caller was apparently a former Soviet. Should Joannie bomb the FS like Yuna did at Skate America, a clean skater can bypass her.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    Joannie held her layback spin long enough to meet at least a level 3. Please Yuna's layback is not that great either and she gets a level 4. Rochette's spirals are about extension and above hip level with good speed. Her non-jump elements is great because of her great edge control and speed. Levels in spins and spirals are not based on only flexibility.

    Sasha is a better performer and known for her spins and spirals. However, I would never put her skating skills above Rochette. Cohen has poor edge work.
    Congrats to Joannie, but I am still surprised that you can get 70 without 3-3 or
    3A .. Mao got over 70 only once with her claire de lune in Team trophy... and she did 3A combo with a clean performance. Also, even though Mao is a relatively slow skater (compared to Yuna or Carolina), you can't deny that she has a beautiful layback and spiral positions... AND SHE STILL GOT 70+ only once.... Yuna getting 70+, I don't think I need to go into details. I saw her performances at SA, and I could see why the judges and commentators love her... She is faster than everyone on the ice and also her jumps were extremely huge.... I will have to see Joannie's performance live to compare though.

    The only people who broke 70 record are Sasha, Yuna, Mao and Joannie.
    Does Joannie's sp match up to Sasha and Yuna's 71+? (I think Yuna's tango in 2007 world was 71+, and the first world record she set, right?).

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    You can't compare marking from different competitions especially ones that were three years ago! Last year at World's Joannie received a 67 in the short program. Is it that unrealistic to increase by three points?

    Are you suggesting that Joannie received this score because the event was in Canada? If this is what you are suggesting don't you think you would have to apply that logic to Mao since that event was held in Japan? I guess she didn't deserve that score either.
    Yes, Mao could have gotten some plus scores since the event was held in Japan, but what I'm saying is it's not only about points, but the QUALITY of skating in those two programs.

    And YES, the event being held in Canada definitely has something to do with Joannie's score. Plus, Joannie's SP in the worlds was way better than this one.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    I wouldn't start counting Alyssa's GPF chances just yet. If she has one of her usual "Alyssa" freeskates she could finish OTP. Then she's out for good.
    I totally agree. Alissa can totally implode in the free skate. She's done this so often, it's to be expected.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    That's what people has been suggesting since last season. It seems so inconceivable that someone can do well without a ratified 3-3. Even if it was inflation, christ, Joannie is not the first person to get one and it's not nearly as egregious as people are making it sound like. She's not breaking records, folks, nor is that lead that big. The tech caller was apparently a former Soviet. Should Joannie bomb the FS like Yuna did at Skate America, a clean skater can bypass her.
    I don't know. Yu Na had some pretty major errors and still got 112 for her freeskate. I'd say it's definitely possible for her to not win the freeskate, but unless Alissa, Mirai, or Laura skates amazingly, and Joannie totally bombs, I think Joannie will win. I would say the same for Akiko and Caroline, but I think they are too far down in the standings to rebound to a 1st place position. As long as Joannie lands 3-4 ratified triples, she should be the winner

  10. #310
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    Can we stop with the skin-color referencing? While I think Lepisto's score is boggling, Lepisto has got more going for her than Kiira Korpi.
    I personally do not necessarily see big racism in FS, but just like the other fields, it is also too naive to assume that there is no racist bias in judging, especially because looks and where you are from matter a lot in FS (e.g., The skater represents the country; The # of spots is restricted by country; The Olympics are a big political event that often serve to boost national pride). You neither can nor should stop people from bringing up the skin-color referencing. I think it healthy to have such skepticism and discuss whether or not such explanations may be justifiable. To stop discussing can be dangerous.
    Last edited by Bennett; 11-20-2009 at 07:21 PM.

  11. #311
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    There is a repeated trend this year that the favorite/ leader is overscored as if to insure her/ his/ thier victory. I love joannie but does not have anything that would justify that s core without a 3/2.I guess the judges at skate Canada are overwhemingly Canadian?

  12. #312
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKFSfan View Post
    Yeah, I loved Worlds 2005 when Sasha attempted a COE and change of position from arabesque to catch foot in the SP, struggled mightily and almost crashed into the wall, having to stop and restart. That to me shows how weak her edge control was.
    That was once.

    Joannie fell on her Footwork Sequence at 2007 Worlds (and another time I believe). Should I assume her skating skills are weak because of that?

    -------

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    1. Yes she does. Sasha does not nearly have the ice coverage like that of Michelle and Shizuka.
    Please show me how she is "scraping by":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc

    She covers the length of the rink twice in her Spiral Sequence. That makes you factually wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    2. I never said the pressing hard into the ice is a sure sign of skating skills. I said the tracing is important.
    You can get a deep tracing by pressing harder. A skater can display great skating skills without making deep tracings, even if deep edges are usually never a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    3. I didn't say lilting edges doesn't require skill.
    Lilting edges don't make as much of tracing, so you basically were.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie_S View Post
    CAN'T AGREE MORE.
    Joannie did well, but 70 without even a 3-3 or a 3A? And with THAT spin and spiral? Since when 70 in the SP become so easy?
    Sorry about mentioning Mao when she didn't competing here, but her personal best in SP in the international competition (except for the WTT since it's a joke) was 69.5 in the 2006 NHK trophy with her Nocturne. Just compare those two programs.
    Mao's performance of Nocturne at 2006 Skate America was also amazing. Those performances were both definitely superior to Joannie's, IMO.

  13. #313
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    You can't compare marking from different competitions especially ones that were three years ago!
    I understand that the validity of comparison would suffer by these two factors. But I still would hope to see scores become more comparable across comps and disciplines within the same time period (i.e., under the same rules, with an acknowledgment that rules are subject to change every year) because TES is very strictly defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    There is a repeated trend this year that the favorite/ leader is overscored as if to insure her/ his/ thier victory.
    I agree with this observation.
    Last edited by Bennett; 11-20-2009 at 07:33 PM.

  14. #314
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    Yay Joannie!! I'm so happy for her. This was exactly what she needed after her subpar showing at her first event. Her FS is lovely, so I hope she can have an amazing skate tomorrow too.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I personally do not necessarily see big racism in FS, but just like the other fields, it is also too naive to assume that there is no racist bias in judging, especially because looks and where you are from matter a lot in FS (e.g., The skater represents the country; The # of spots is restricted by country; The Olympics are a big political event that often serve to boost national pride). You neither can nor should stop people from bringing up the skin-color referencing. I think it healthy to have such skepticism and discuss whether or not such explanations may be justifiable. To stop discussing can be dangerous.
    I'm not saying it's racist but there's certainly a degrading tone to it and this is coming from a minority speaking. The first time it was mentioned, the poster has trolled on other forums claiming racism against Asians. While I think race/nationality can play into account (a la Kiira Korpii), that tone of the second poster was what made me tick.

    Please show me how she is "scraping by":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc

    She covers the length of the rink twice in her Spiral Sequence. That makes you factually wrong.
    Sasha needed break the flow of her Arabesque.

    I'm talking in comparison to the Arabesque spiral in this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSaV440TLHg

    Or even this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpRnke3sfL4

    Both of those initial spiral positions were held out on the same continuous edge. Sasha's edges improved but not nearly to the level. You can look at her spirals at Torino, or even TEB 2005, and see her barely scrap by. It's not a secret that Sasha's basic skating is subpar.

    You can get a deep tracing by pressing harder. A skater can display great skating skills without making deep tracings, even if deep edges are usually never a bad thing.
    Yes, someone like Shizuka, great tracing but she doesn't press hard.

    Lilting edges don't make as much of tracing, so you basically were.
    I "basically" was according to you but I was referring to the fact that I never actually typed that out.

    I think I'm going to by a sub over at FSU for the next Olympics.

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