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Thread: Ladies SP 13:15 pm Eastern Time Friday, November 20

  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by figurejennah View Post
    Ok, a quick question. Was Joannie's performance as good as:

    Yuna Kim's

    Tango de roxanne [2007 world - 71.95]
    (TES: 41.49, PCS: 30.46)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjdMwMvd35g

    Danse Macabre [2009 4cc-72.24] and
    (TES: 42.20, PCS: 30.04)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOHh77x1feI


    Mao Asada's

    Nocturne 2006 SA - 68.86?
    (TES:39.40, PCS: 29.44)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmyUwtmch9w

    I love Mao's clare de lune, but I couldn't find her high scored program on youtube. They deleted them all I think... :( But Mao certainly did not receive 70 with her claire de lune at any major competitions, except in team trophy, which she received 75 with 3A combo.

    From what I saw, Joannie's PCS is higher than all of these, right? (31+) She also didn't do any 3-3, and I wouldn't say her step or spiral sequence or even spins are better than Yuna or Mao....?
    http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...xcellence.html

    the good thing is the Skate Canada judging did not appear overly generous (except for Rochette, the homey) that is it.

  2. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by figurejennah View Post
    Ok, a quick question. Was Joannie's performance as good as:

    Yuna Kim's

    Tango de roxanne [2007 world - 71.95]
    (TES: 41.49, PCS: 30.46)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjdMwMvd35g

    Danse Macabre [2009 4cc-72.24] and
    (TES: 42.20, PCS: 30.04)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOHh77x1feI

    (And these were world record breaking performances)


    Mao Asada's

    Nocturne 2006 SA - 68.86?
    (TES:39.40, PCS: 29.44)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmyUwtmch9w

    I love Mao's clare de lune, but I couldn't find her high scored program on youtube. They deleted them all I think... :( But Mao certainly did not receive 70 with her claire de lune at any major competitions, except in team trophy, which she received 75 with 3A combo.

    From what I saw, Joannie's PCS is higher than all of these, right? (31+) She also didn't do any 3-3, and I wouldn't say her step or spiral sequence or even spins are better than Yuna or Mao....?

    Joannie's SP is up here.

    http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/Fig.../ID=1337428457
    I understand your point, but CoP score is not an exactly objective thing. It doesn't make a big sense to compare Joannie's score with YuNa's or Mao's. You just compare that with Alissa's or Mirai's in this competition. Yes, she got generous points. But, there has always been adavantage for home skaters, so this is not a big surprise. I just hope that the home skater advantage will be minimized in the Vancouver Oly.

    By the same token, Joannie fans don't need to be over-excited about her score. In China, just few weeks ago, she got only bronze. IMO, she is not a proven skater yet. Can she prove herself in Japan? We'll see.
    Last edited by cosmos; 11-21-2009 at 03:50 AM.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by figurejennah View Post
    Ok, a quick question. Was Joannie's performance as good as:

    Yuna Kim's

    Tango de roxanne [2007 world - 71.95]
    (TES: 41.49, PCS: 30.46)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjdMwMvd35g

    Danse Macabre [2009 4cc-72.24] and
    (TES: 42.20, PCS: 30.04)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOHh77x1feI

    (And these were world record breaking performances)


    Mao Asada's

    Nocturne 2006 SA - 68.86?
    (TES:39.40, PCS: 29.44)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmyUwtmch9w

    I love Mao's clare de lune, but I couldn't find her high scored program on youtube. They deleted them all I think... :( But Mao certainly did not receive 70 with her claire de lune at any major competitions, except in team trophy, which she received 75 with 3A combo.

    From what I saw, Joannie's PCS is higher than all of these, right? (31+) She also didn't do any 3-3, and I wouldn't say her step or spiral sequence or even spins are better than Yuna or Mao....?

    Joannie's SP is up here.

    http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/Fig.../ID=1337428457
    I don't think Joannie compares with Yuna or Mao in the artistic levels or expression. Especially compared with Yuna who imo is in another universe for over all qualities imo. Joannie has superior jumps imo (especially that lutz) over Mao. When she hits Yuna is in a league of her own.

    Joannie has improved quite a bit in presentation over the years. Her spirals are still 'meh' to me. I've never cared for her skating in general but I was really impressed with her SP-she seems to be peaking at just the right time. The placements for the most part are correct. The home girl (or boy) always seem to get a few extra points if they stay on their feet but it's not blatant here I don't think. Joannie deserves to be in first.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie_S View Post
    Sorry about mentioning Mao when she didn't compete here, but her personal best in SP in the international competition (except for the WTT since it's a joke) was 69.5 in the 2006 NHK trophy with her Nocturne. Just compare those two programs.
    There are a lot of examples to compare to Joannie's score. Mao is one of them - I agree. Also look at Carolina's 2007 Worlds SP. It was one of the best SPs in ladies' skating and she got 68 for that - with a 3-3 and excellent skating. I could list more but that is not the point.

    IMO, you can't compare scores from previous competitions to today's scores. COP has driven scores up up up up up, skaters have been adapting their programs to fit to the new system and it has become a hunt for points.

    If Yu Na receives 76 for a program with a 3-3, I think it's fair that Joannie receives 70 for her SP without the 3-3. That doesn't change the fact that I think they are BOTH overscored. Both scores are too high - but I if you look at them in direct comparison, I think they are justified. (Dunno if I got my point across... not very good with the English )

    If Mao or Carolina could skate their previous programs THIS season, they would probably be higher than Joannie. But they simply haven't done that yet so we don't know what their score would be if skated clean.
    It would be interesting to see the top ladies all competing to their full potential and how big the gap would be between them.
    Last edited by jiggs; 11-21-2009 at 04:17 AM.

  5. #350
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    ^^Thank you, voice of reason! You have been missed.

  6. #351
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    Caroline needs a new coach ASAP, or maybe one that is more direct with her. I don't know anything about Li's coaching style or philosophy, but I get the impression that Caroline thinks the judges are almost out to get her and that she really doesn't realize how huge her issues are. I caught the ladies short on TV (rather than streaming) today for the first time in ages. It was even more apparent how slow Caroline is and her flaws were so much more obvious. I thought even one of her spins looked unusually slow for a Caroline spin. I think she really needs a coach that will kick her butt (not literally, of course) and show no mercy. She needs someone to tell it like it is and not pansy around the issues.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by figurejennah View Post
    Ok, a quick question. Was Joannie's performance as good as:

    Yuna Kim's

    Tango de roxanne [2007 world - 71.95]
    (TES: 41.49, PCS: 30.46)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjdMwMvd35g

    Danse Macabre [2009 4cc-72.24] and
    (TES: 42.20, PCS: 30.04)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOHh77x1feI

    (And these were world record breaking performances)


    Mao Asada's

    Nocturne 2006 SA - 68.86?
    (TES:39.40, PCS: 29.44)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmyUwtmch9w

    I love Mao's clare de lune, but I couldn't find her high scored program on youtube. They deleted them all I think... :( But Mao certainly did not receive 70 with her claire de lune at any major competitions, except in team trophy, which she received 75 with 3A combo.

    From what I saw, Joannie's PCS is higher than all of these, right? (31+) She also didn't do any 3-3, and I wouldn't say her step or spiral sequence or even spins are better than Yuna or Mao....?

    Joannie's SP is up here.

    http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/Fig.../ID=1337428457
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    I don't think Joannie compares with Yuna or Mao in the artistic levels or expression. Especially compared with Yuna who imo is in another universe for over all qualities imo. Joannie has superior jumps imo (especially that lutz) over Mao. When she hits Yuna is in a league of her own.

    Joannie has improved quite a bit in presentation over the years. Her spirals are still 'meh' to me.
    To me Joannie performance was in the same league as those top performances mentioned above (except of not having 3-3). I really don't see how Mao or Yuna are artistically head and shoulders above Joannie. I would rather say that Joannie is more mature in her skating. But in general their expression and artistry is on similar level, just in different style - maybe Mao has not established her style completely yet and her skating to me seems sometimes a bit chaotic and 'learnt' rather than natural.
    And if Joannie's spiral is 'meh' than so is Yuna's.

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinga View Post
    maybe Mao has not established her style completely yet and her skating to me seems sometimes a bit chaotic and 'learnt' rather than natural.
    I'm not so sure if "mature" is the right word for Joannie's skating. I completely respect your opinion, but I have to disagree. I can see she tries to maximize the use of her upper body for artistic reasons, but it just seems that she's trying too hard. I know the choreography is there, but she never stops moving her arms, often overpowering the music. "chaotic and learnt" are better suited words for Rochette, not Mao. I'm not so sure whose skating could ever be natural if Mao's isn't.

  9. #354
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    I liked Mirai. I wish she had higher scores. I also liked Akiko. She looked great! I wonder why they didn't get better scores.

    Did Laura get ahead of Suzuki and Mirai with that performance? It is very strange. She missed the majority of elements. At NHK, I thought that she was underscored at SP. But here over-scored really a lot. Or perhaps I could say that Suzuki and Mirai were significantly underscored. Perhaps reputation scores mattered a lot? Then I wished if they at least had credited Mirai who is a US champ, if not Suzuki who has had only a little international reputation yet.

    I think that Alissa was wonderful in each element. If she had a little bit greater speed, she is flawless. BTW, she can be a great model for a dentist commercial;p

    Joannie looked very secure. It just didn't look that she would make any mistakes. My mom said that she was outstanding. But 70??? the audience went wild and ecstatic. But it seemed very over-scored. Although I acknowledge that scores are inflating over years and that it is meaningless to compare scores with past events years ago, I would appreciate it if scores remain comparable between men and ladies.

    BTW, I noticed a lot of empty seats. I also noticed so many elderly ladies in the audience, really noticeably a lot to the extent that they constitute the majority of the audience. Is popularity of FS really re-bouncing in Canada, as one of the threads in the Edge forum suggests? Speculating from their ages, the majority of the audience seem to me to be loyal fans for many decades because they don't seem to mind going out and staying in a cold ice arena for a few hours despite their relatively old ages. Or is this just because the event was done in the weekday afternoon and we would see a different set of audience tomorrow, or the elderly ladies in Canada are so open-minded that many of them would take a new interest in FS in this Olympic year?
    Last edited by Bennett; 11-21-2009 at 08:33 AM.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinga View Post
    To me Joannie performance was in the same league as those top performances mentioned above (except of not having 3-3). I really don't see how Mao or Yuna are artistically head and shoulders above Joannie. I would rather say that Joannie is more mature in her skating.
    mature???

    I was just wondering if what is definition of mature in your dictionary?

    Yes, her career is much longer than their's,
    But It doesn't mean she is more mature in her skating.

    I should think her skating is rough , neither sophisticated nor mature.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    Caroline needs a new coach ASAP, or maybe one that is more direct with her. I don't know anything about Li's coaching style or philosophy, but I get the impression that Caroline thinks the judges are almost out to get her and that she really doesn't realize how huge her issues are. I caught the ladies short on TV (rather than streaming) today for the first time in ages. It was even more apparent how slow Caroline is and her flaws were so much more obvious. I thought even one of her spins looked unusually slow for a Caroline spin. I think she really needs a coach that will kick her butt (not literally, of course) and show no mercy. She needs someone to tell it like it is and not pansy around the issues.
    I totally agree. Rather than resisting the new judging system, which obviously over-penalizes obvious flaws like her lack of speed and mule catapult, she needs to accept it for what it is and work around it.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by gracefulswan View Post
    i think she's a big rival myself! i consider that if joannie can stay with 5 pts of yuna going into the free, she'll set herself up quite, quite well. her free program, imho, is a bit better constructed and i prefer it over yuna's. and i believe she skated more clean longs than yuna has. the latter has never skated clean at worlds in a long program even though she's a world medalist 3x over. i'm wondering if she can finally do a clean one when it will count the most. i can't imagine that the judges would prefer yuna, if she makes a mistake, to a clean joannie, esp. when the games will be in canada. that will call into question the judges once again not doing their job of judging impartially a la salt lake..... i think, if both skate a clean short, that they should stay not too far apart.... yuna will have to skate lights out in canada to win over rochette if the latter doesn't falter. seriously. don't take grand prix scores too much to heart i say.... we all saw that when sasha was competing in the grand prixs leading up to turino, she was consistently scoring worse than her main russian rival who got such 'high' scores.... and then suddenly, at the olympics, her scores were not 'so' bad after all in comparison...lol. the grand prixs are no where near the olympics in terms of importance or prestige.....
    I agree with you in general, but the home court advantage sometimes translates to a home court handicap in individual sports. There is so much pressure to do well in your own country sometimes, especially when it's a sport your country really cares about, that individual athletes often falter under the limelight. Think of the Japanese skaters at the NHK Trophy this year, Yuna at the GPF last year and, although from a different sport, French tennis players at the French Open and Aussie tennis players at the Australian Open.

    If Yuna skates clean in Vancouver, she will win. What most concerns me about Yuna's chances at an OGM is the possibility of her developing mental hiccups about her 3F. I think we saw the beginnings of such a hiccup at TEB and SA. Her 3F, because it had been subject to edge calls previously, seemed to hang over her head like a stormy cloud, and it manifested in her 1) skipping it altogether in the TEB LP and 2) falling on it in the SA LP. Even worse, her preoccupation with it seemed to bleed over to her 3Lz at SA (most likely because the mechanics are so similar). I don't think she has a technical problem with her 3F (remember, she landed it nearly perfectly in both SPs); at this point it seems to be mostly mental. I really really hope that she's consulting with a good sports psychologist RIGHT NOW before it becomes a serious issue.

  13. #358
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    At least we understand the system: if there is no DG on jumps,
    all the elements are ok, all skaters can get more than 70 even if they don't do 3-3 combination.
    But this case, I feel sorry for Yuna who tries 3Lz-3T which is super difficult, Mao who tries 3A-2T which is also difficult and risky.

    I like Joannie, but I think Alissa skated better and beautifully than Joannie except steps.

    Akiko Suzuki : I don't really like her spins. Very annoying.

    Could some American explain me who will be 2 American female skaters for the Olympic game?
    Is it very important how much they get the points at GPS or it all depends on the result of the U.S national competition?
    Alissa seems to be the first candidate so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I
    Joannie looked very secure. It just didn't look that she would make any mistakes. My mom said that she was outstanding. But 70??? the audience went wild and ecstatic. But it seemed very over-scored. Although I acknowledge that scores are inflating over years and that it is meaningless to compare scores with past events years ago, I would appreciate it if scores remain comparable between men and ladies.
    I think people consider 70+ a WOW score, but many of them fail to find the WOW factor in Joannie's sp.
    Last edited by cosmos; 11-21-2009 at 08:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katakwan View Post
    mature???

    I was just wondering if what is definition of mature in your dictionary?

    Yes, her career is much longer than their's,
    But It doesn't mean she is more mature in her skating.

    I should think her skating is rough , neither sophisticated nor mature.
    Well that is your opinion, I have mine. If you ask a question what is mature in my dictionary, what is not mature in yours? I mean, do I have to explain the meaning and feeling behind the basic words (I have not seen that it was required from other posters here explaining their opinions)? To me, her skating is more femminine and sophisticated than Mao's or, to lesser extent, Yuna's.

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