Ladies Free Program 19:00 pm Eastern Time Saturday, November 21

[Mathman]

...I find that many people here are blaming CoP for the downhill popularity of FS in the US. I don't agree with them. If FS is less popular than before, it's because you don't have a star skater in ladies field currently who will be able to present your country a gold medal, a national pride, like Michelle, Sasha were...

In my opinion, I don't think either the CoP, judging scandals, or the lack of an international star is the reason for the decline in popularity of figure skating in the United States.

The decline began while Michelle Kwan was at her peak and long before Sasha or the CoP came around. I think it is just a natural cultural drift in terms of what forms of entertainment are in fashion.

[janetfan]

Those casual fans generally are not concerned with skating itself but only with which country the winner is.

I find that many people here are blaming CoP for the downhill popularity of FS in the US. I don't agree with them. If FS is less popular than before, it's because you don't have a star skater in ladies field currently who will be able to present your country a gold medal, a national pride, like Michelle, Sasha were. Wasn't ladies part traditionally the most popular field (and we can easily see that by comparing the number of posts here between ladies and mens, etc.)? The absence of a strong potential podium candidates after Sasha is definitley the reason. The transition from 6.0 to CoP simply happened to coincide with that from Sasha to the generation after her. Simple as that. If America brings up another Michell, another Sasha, the popularity will recover. So don't worry.

Just look at the situation in Japan and Korea. FS wasn't ever more popular than now. The reason? Because they have strong star power: Mao and Yuna. And the rivalry (which has been partly made up by media) between them made FS even more exciting in these countries than ever, coupled with the historical backgrounds between the two countries! Therfore, if these countries too do not continue to have podium skaters, I think the popularity (in terms of casual fans) will cool down.

OK, I agree with you to an extent. My favorite skater this season is Jeremy Abbott. My friends could not comment about Pairs and Ice dancing which they like because NBC did not show it today. I told them how great V/M are and they were disappointed not to be able to see them. Two of the three knew who Tanith is and were disappointed she wasn't part of the broadcast.

They asked if the Russians are still dominating Pairs and I said not like in the past. They asked about the American pairs and I told them they are good but not great.

It sounds to me like you are from a country that has nothing in the way of Pairs and Dance. No tradition and very low public awareness of these two great disciplines.

I think your point is partially true, but fails to recognize there is more to skating than the Ladies. One of the greatest memories which also had very high TV ratings was the "Battle of The Brians back in 1988.

We had another showdown between Kat and Debi that year but it took a backseat compared to the guys competition that year,

For skating to come back in USA depends on a heck of a lot more than an Ice Princess. That is certainly part of the equation - but only one part.

[janetfan]

Yeah, Mathman, I was responding to it.

You know, janetfan, your passion for figure skating, both presently and from a more historical standpoint (your namesake, as an example) is exemplary. You clearly want to like figure skating today (unlike other rosy-eyeds), and I almost wish I disliked COP as much as you do simply so we'd be on the same side. I don't know why I see beauty where so many others see simply math. I don't know why people cry about lack of risk taking when a skater like Kevin Reynolds will attempt a 3-3-2 at the end of his program, or Joannie Rochette will jam her program with technical content in the form of transitions. I don't know how programs as wonderfully light and comic and Takahashi to La Strada or Oda's Chaplin routine aren't creative. I don't understand how people can decry a system that produces the beauty of Virtue and Moir. I don't.

Thanks for your comments. I have had a similar discussion with the poster "I Love To SKate" several times. You know what she made me finaly realize?
That I have been watching too much of the Ladies events this season and not enough of the other disciplines.

She was right and I really enjoyed the Men's event at SC, I plan to start watching more Pairs and Dance again too because the little bit I have watched this season has been good.

I think "I Love To Skate" has not watched much Ladies this season but after what she saw last night i think she might know where I have been coming from.

How about this. Leaving the scoring system out of it can we agree the Ladies have been very disappointing this season? Maybe bad enough to drive someone like me a little nuts

I think if I watch more of the other disciplines I will enjoy it more and maybe not feel so disappointed.

ETA: Joannie has been a big disappointment both times I have seen her skate this season. I am waiting for her to do better coz I admire her skating

[ImaginaryPogue]

Agreed. Ladies has been very disappointing this season.

[R.D.]

In my opinion, I don't think either the CoP, judging scandals, or the lack of an international star is the reason for the decline in popularity of figure skating in the United States.

The decline began while Michelle Kwan was at her peak and long before Sasha or the CoP came around. I think it is just a natural cultural drift in terms of what forms of entertainment are in fashion.

But it wasn't Kwan so much as it was the massive publicity generated by The Whack, right? I mean, look at gymnastics...the American women continue to dominate, and yet you really only hear about it every 4 years. There's something different about ice skating in that regard.

Popularity was just returning to what it was before then, but 2002, the Cop, and then lack of an American star hastened that decline, it seems.

I'm not happy with some of the judging at these GP events. If something like this happens at the Games I do hope that all h**l will break loose and TPTB will be FORCED to do something about it- put up or shut up. They won't get away with changing the system yet again.

[Joesitz]

My problem with russian skaters is that there is little difference in style. They do not have a Weir/Lyacek/Abbott/Mahbanoozadah difference.

Tradition changes just like the seasons. Canada has always had good Pairs and recently good Skate Dance. They also had a World Champion Male Skater.

Figure Skating, basically, in the US, is THE LADIES. They are champions at 14 if not 12. Even posting on a skating board one has to think of carefully writing lady-like posts. It's not your evening newspaper sports writers.

But, I've come around to thinking, why not? It 'ssomething for the Ladies, and the little girls to feel proud of.

[ImaginaryPogue]

But it wasn't Kwan so much as it was the massive publicity generated by The Whack, right? I mean, look at gymnastics...the American women continue to dominate, and yet you really only hear about it every 4 years. There's something different about ice skating in that regard.

Popularity was just returning to what it was before then, but 2002, the Cop, and then lack of an American star hastened that decline, it seems.

I'm not happy with some of the judging at these GP events. If something like this happens at the Games I do hope that all h**l will break loose and TPTB will be FORCED to do something about it- put up or shut up. They won't get away with changing the system yet again.

I'm not sure I get your timeline.

[prettykeys]

In my opinion, I don't think either the CoP, judging scandals, or the lack of an international star is the reason for the decline in popularity of figure skating in the United States.

The decline began while Michelle Kwan was at her peak and long before Sasha or the CoP came around. I think it is just a natural cultural drift in terms of what forms of entertainment are in fashion.

I suspected the same, but Kwan fanatics almost had me convinced I was crazy and just got disinterested on my own...

[ImaginaryPogue]

Hush - don't let them hear you!!!

[R.D.]

I'm not sure I get your timeline.

The mass decline of skating popularity in the US began in 2002, and was spurred on by many events, including SLC, the advent of Cop (many long-time disgruntled fans), and then lack of an American star after 2006 (why should I watch?). Also, skating was disappearing from TV just as quickly...during late 90s/early 00s the GP series was on American over-the-air TV every weekend, you had the Disson skating specials, you had CBS' Ice Wars, you had invitationals like Campbell's Classic, Marshall's Invitational, Euros and 4CCs, and then US Nationals and Worlds featured on prime time network TV. Starting in 2004, the GP series disappeared (went exclusively to cable). In 2007, the cable network dropped the GP series and the invitationals disappeared. During the 2008-09 season, the only competitive events on American TV were Skate America, US Nationals and the World championships.

This season we have had more US coverage than in recent years, but that's due to NBC wanting to promote the heck out of skating for the Vancouver games...after this season, we'll likely be back to only SA and Nationals (maybe a couple hours of Worlds too).

[R.D.]

I suspected the same, but Kwan fanatics almost had me convinced I was crazy and just got disinterested on my own...

:chorus:

[bekalc]

Final note, I won't be surprised to see a skater fall several times (like Sasha Cohen did at the 2006 Olympics) & win gold against another skater that skated without falls. Arakawa was lucky back then, the system has advanced to the point that if somebody like Sasha falls multiples times she will still win due to her lead from the SP. Watch, wait & see..

Huh? It seemed to me given Plushenko's HUGE scores that the judges back then knew very well how to make sure that someone got a huge short program lead, if they wanted the person to get a huge short program lead.

Arakawa was a recent world champion who was skating lights out in the practices. It was very clear to me that the judges made the conscious decision to score Irina, Sasha, and Arakawa close together to ensure who ever skated the best in the long won.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we have a situation where if Asada lands her 3axel/2toe, Ando lands her 3/3, Kostner lands her 3/3 in the short that all three are scored very close together to ensure once again that someone with a good long program wins. Rochette with her 3/2 will probably be within striking distance too.

[ImaginaryPogue]

The mass decline of skating popularity in the US began in 2002, and was spurred on by many events, including SLC, the advent of Cop (many long-time disgruntled fans), and then lack of an American star after 2006 (why should I watch?). Also, skating was disappearing from TV just as quickly...during late 90s/early 00s the GP series was on American over-the-air TV every weekend, you had the Disson skating specials, you had CBS' Ice Wars, you had invitationals like Campbell's Classic, Marshall's Invitational, Euros and 4CCs, and then US Nationals and Worlds featured on prime time network TV. Starting in 2004, the GP series disappeared (went exclusively to cable). In 2007, the cable network dropped the GP series and the invitationals disappeared. During the 2008-09 season, the only competitive events on American TV were Skate America, US Nationals and the World championships.

Sorry, RD, I should rephrase. To make sure I understand you correctly...

1. The "whacking" inflated the popularity of figure skating artificially (the drama! the ego!!)

2. By 2002, with no real rivalry (a la Lipinski vs Kwan), the sport was returning to it's semi-popular state pre-whacking.

3. The SLC scandal, followed by COP, followed by the lack of an American lady star combined to expedite the sport's decline in popularity.

I just wanna make sure that's what you're saying.

[R.D.]

Sorry, RD, I should rephrase. To make sure I understand you correctly...

1. The "whacking" inflated the popularity of figure skating artificially (the drama! the ego!!)

2. By 2002, with no real rivalry (a la Lipinski vs Kwan), the sport was returning to it's semi-popular state pre-whacking.

3. The SLC scandal, followed by COP, followed by the lack of an American lady star combined to expedite the sport's decline in popularity.

I just wanna make sure that's what you're saying.

More or less.

I should mention, though, that the figure skating at the SLC games drew a MASSIVE audience (it was a home Olys after all). After that, though, it was QUICKLY downhill.

At the lowest point though FS will just be another "once in 4 years" sport. People will pay attention to it during the Olympics, and then forget about it until the next Games. I'm sure there will always be a sizable audience for Olympic ice skating. It's just non-Olympic ice skating that is suffering.

[janetfan]

I'm not sure if I agree with this Harding/Kerrigan incident as being the only thing that made skating popular. I understand that it did create a wave of publicity and am aware of how high the ratings were in Lillehamer.

It is never mentioned here but I am also aware of how put off USA casual fans and the public that was watching skating for the first time felt when NBC kept showing replays of Oksana's mistakes that night.
It didn't bother me as I never was a Kerrigan fan and thought Oksana was the better skater. Only problem is that Oksana was not better the eveing of the LP's.

It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong - USA fans were told by Scott that Nancy would win and then when she didn't he said she deserved to win.

This left a rotten taste yet again in the mouths of USA fans. Over the years the perception of foul play has simply turned off fans. Why watch a rigged sport?

So the fans left in droves after '94 but Michelle was ascending and she managed to keep interest at a decent level. Canadians say they never lost interest but I read enough and know skating has suffered greatly in Canada since the SLC scandals.

To deny that the vast majority of the general public along with the casual fan has not been greatly effected and turned off by skating scandals is simply false.
It has had a major impact and goes against every instinct about sports that we are raised with in North America.

Going back - Carol Heiss was very popular, appeared on TV and made a movie.
Peggy did TV specials and was a big hit with the ice shows for years.

Janet Lynn became the richest female athlete in history when she turned Pro.
Her appearances on Wide World of Sports in the late 60's and early 70' had very high ratings. Like Michelle, America watched her grow up on the ice and when skating was televised it had good ratings in those days.

Dorothy was wildly popular - more so than Michelle in my opinion. She did TV specials, starred in many commercials, had lttile dolls and other merchadising deals.


My point is that the only time skating was popular in USA was not just after the Harding incident.
I contend the cheating and scandals have had the single biggest impact on the decline of the sport in North America.

It is certainly a cultural shift as mm suggests but it is hard to convince me that the last scandal followed by the anonymous judging is not the single biggest contributor to skatings decline, I am also convinced that Michelle or anyone else could not bring it back without major format changes. To think so would be asking more than any skater could ever hope to provide.