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Thread: Ladies Free Program 19:00 pm Eastern Time Saturday, November 21

  1. #496
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Hush - don't let them hear you!!!
    I just want to clarify that it's not Kwan's fault and my comment wasn't meant as a jab towards her. (some of her diehard fans? yes ) I just don't think the world of Ladies' Figure Skating wasn't quite as interesting then--in my corner of the globe--and, if anything, it's too bad for Kwan, because I'm discovering or re-discovering some of her programs that really were lovely.

    I really loved it during the Kristi Yamaguchi/Midori Ito time.

  2. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    .

    Figure Skating, basically, in the US, is THE LADIES. They are champions at 14 if not 12. Even posting on a skating board one has to think of carefully writing lady-like posts. It's not your evening newspaper sports writers.
    .
    See but that's just the problem, they are too good too young and then by the time they are 16 or 18, they are too tall or develop bad attitudes or their hips get too big or they don't care anymore and then all of a sudden they are just okay.
    This has happened to too many ladies, Tara, Kimmie, Emily, Caroline, and i'm sure there are others i'm forgetting. I mean, it almost seems like cheating the system when an 80 pound 14 year old wins the title. That was what people were arguing in ladies gymnastics at the olympics 2 years ago....13 year old girls from China pretended to be 16 and then won everything because they were 4 foot tall waifs who could do just about anything

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I contend the cheating and scandals have had the single biggest impact on the decline of the sport in North America....
    The reason that I can't quite embrace that view is that figure skating, and Olympic sports in general, have always been viewed as a sport where eveything is fixed. The Salt Lake City thing was same old, same old.

  4. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The reason that I can't quite embrace that view is that figure skating, and Olympic sports in general, have always been viewed as a sport where eveything is fixed. The Salt Lake City thing was same old, same old.
    Really? I must be ridiculously naive then. I read somewhere that after every Winter Olympics, there tends to be a spike in figure skating enrollment amongst youngsters, but that didn't happened post SLC. I think the fact that there was open cheating really did hurt the perception, along with the fact that the victims were Canadians (if the victims were French or Finnish, would they have cared so much?)

  5. #500
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised at all if we have a situation where if Asada lands her 3axel/2toe, Ando lands her 3/3, Kostner lands her 3/3 in the short that all three are scored very close together to ensure once again that someone with a good long program wins. Rochette with her 3/2 will probably be within striking distance too.
    And poor Yu Na will just retire to an island in the Pacific Ocean and weep.

  6. #501
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    That was what people were arguing in ladies gymnastics at the olympics 2 years ago....13 year old girls from China pretended to be 16 and then won everything because they were 4 foot tall waifs who could do just about anything
    That's an interesting point, too. If 13 year-old 4-foot-tall waifs are the best gynmnasts in the world, or the best figure skaters, why not let them compete for the gold medals?

  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    And poor Yu Na will just retire to an island in the Pacific Ocean and weep.
    I forgot to put in that I think that they would be scored around the same as Yu-na.. Maybe a little lead for Kim but not necessarily a HUGE one.

    Originally Posted by silverlake22
    That was what people were arguing in ladies gymnastics at the olympics 2 years ago....13 year old girls from China pretended to be 16 and then won everything because they were 4 foot tall waifs who could do just about anything
    Nobody who pays attention to Chinese gymnastics thought that the Chinese girls were actually 12/13. Even the girl who looked like she was missing her tooth, wasn't 13 because there are tapes of the girl as early as 2002 out there as her being a hopeful for the 2008 team. You can't tell something like that from a six/seven year old. A nine year old though you can get a better idea. Most of the Chinese girls were likely 14/15. And this actually makes sense because next year, they all seemed to be struggling with this thing called puberty. The Chinese normally go really two years early.. They actually did have a 12 year old they could have sent, so they thought they were comprising. :lol:

    But even now they have apparently gotten the criticism and there was one girl whom it was puzzling to see didn't make their world team. And there's talk that its because of age (consistency too but mainly age). I mean its hard to know for sure how old those kids are though. But Deng Linlin being 12 was really unlikely given the tapes that exist of her. Kexin, Yang Yilin, and Jiang being that young is equally ridiculous. Especially if you see pictures of them now (and the tapes of Jiang from pretty early too) Kexin especially does know look like she could be 16.

    Its similar to the N. Korean girl in 1992. She probably WAS underage, but probably only by a year. That's because there are tapes of this girl competiting for years before hand. She may have been 10/11 at her first worlds but she wasn't 10/11 by 1992.
    Last edited by bekalc; 11-22-2009 at 10:10 PM.

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    I can't speak for gymnastics. But 80-pound, 4-foot-tall sprites aren't the best skaters. They're merely the best jumpers. As long as skating is done to music, they'll never be the best skaters. They don't have the finesse to do smooth transitions or musical interpretation. In fact, if their skills become the ones most valued by the scoring system, skating will have to be dumbed down to fit them--no overly sophisticated dresses, no really intense music. Example: I often go back to Tara's winning OGM program--modest dress, upbeat music, program entirely suitable for her age--and compare it with another program from a few years earlier, done by a 24-year-old, with (as I recall) no jumps: Gordeyeva's first solo program, to the Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth Symphony. Those of you who watched skating in those days: which program gave you gooseflesh as you saw it? Which do you remember to this day? Yes, skating is a sport. But I'm sorry, I'd rather watch a complete skater like Czisny (when she can jump), Arakawa, YuNa, or Kwan rather than whoever the current junior is with a quad-triple. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

    Skating where the ladies are 80-pound pre-teens may actually decline in popularity. I remember reading an interview with Kurt Thomas, the American gymnastics champ in the 1980s. He was asked whether he'd ever dated a gymnast, and he said laughingly, how could he--they were all children. In the same vein, those of you who know guys who enjoy watching skating because Lepisto or Korpi are eye candy...do you think those guys will still watch skating when all the "ladies" are children?

  9. #504
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Thanks for your comments. I have had a similar discussion with the poster "I Love To SKate" several times. You know what she made me finaly realize?
    That I have been watching too much of the Ladies events this season and not enough of the other disciplines.

    She was right and I really enjoyed the Men's event at SC, I plan to start watching more Pairs and Dance again too because the little bit I have watched this season has been good.

    I think "I Love To Skate" has not watched much Ladies this season but after what she saw last night i think she might know where I have been coming from.
    Thanks for the shout out Janetfan! I am glad you have been watching the other disciplines. The Ladies long was pretty much a bust, I agree. However, the other medalists in the disciplines were all pretty fantastic! So one bad event in a competition isn't that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    ETA: Joannie has been a big disappointment both times I have seen her skate this season. I am waiting for her to do better coz I admire her skating
    In China she had a bad short and a fairly good long. Here she had a fantastic short and a bad long. Hopefully at the GPF she puts it together

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    OMG I'm so impressed that wikipedia included our Ja'mie King from Summer Heights High!!! Like, you know what I mean?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdtsJlZG1Ss
    That was so random!

  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I can't speak for gymnastics. But 80-pound, 4-foot-tall sprites aren't the best skaters. They're merely the best jumpers. As long as skating is done to music, they'll never be the best skaters. They don't have the finesse to do smooth transitions or musical interpretation. In fact, if their skills become the ones most valued by the scoring system, skating will have to be dumbed down to fit them--no overly sophisticated dresses, no really intense music. Example: I often go back to Tara's winning OGM program--modest dress, upbeat music, program entirely suitable for her age--and compare it with another program from a few years earlier, done by a 24-year-old, with (as I recall) no jumps: Gordeyeva's first solo program, to the Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth Symphony. Those of you who watched skating in those days: which program gave you gooseflesh as you saw it? Which do you remember to this day? Yes, skating is a sport. But I'm sorry, I'd rather watch a complete skater like Czisny (when she can jump), Arakawa, YuNa, or Kwan rather than whoever the current junior is with a quad-triple. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

    Skating where the ladies are 80-pound pre-teens may actually decline in popularity. I remember reading an interview with Kurt Thomas, the American gymnastics champ in the 1980s. He was asked whether he'd ever dated a gymnast, and he said laughingly, how could he--they were all children. In the same vein, those of you who know guys who enjoy watching skating because Lepisto or Korpi are eye candy...do you think those guys will still watch skating when all the "ladies" are children?
    First of all, I say ridiculous. Now that the sport is paying attention to things like skating skills, transitions, and underrotations. It will be VERY difficult for a just jumping bean to win.

    I don't think it would have killed the sport at all to let Asada and Kim skate at the Olympics last year. I don't think they would have beaten the skate that Arakawa put done, but they would have made the competition certainly more interesting. And people wouldn't have been asking how Sasha medaled with that skate.

    And as for gymnastics, the sport was better off with the old rules.. For example Shannon Miller wouldn't have been allowed to compete in Barcelona under the old rules. She'd have been a year too young. Boginsky wouldn't have been at 1988 worlds, she'd have been a year too young. Nastia Liukin was a gorgeous gymnast at 15. She was better at 19, but she was gorgeous at 15. But gymnastics is a different sport. Where gymnasts are more likely to be artistic if they were trained in things like dance at a young age, and had coaches who stressed it.. Which is why the Soviets normally turned out gorgeous gymnasts who were yes young.

  12. #507
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    I always think baseball is boring. Why is MLB si popular? Because it is a competition, long and fierce competition.

    IMO, one of the reasons skating lost popularity in US is that its competetion was not fierce enough. You canot attract people to skating by just pretty skaters and beautiful skating. I think people were just tired of skating.

    I believe CoP is making the skating competition more interesting and fierce. It needs improvement though.

  13. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Really? I must be ridiculously naive then. I read somewhere that after every Winter Olympics, there tends to be a spike in figure skating enrollment amongst youngsters, but that didn't happened post SLC. I think the fact that there was open cheating really did hurt the perception, along with the fact that the victims were Canadians (if the victims were French or Finnish, would they have cared so much?)
    SLC hurt skating in Canada and USA and the fact that the cheating finaly came out in the open and at the Olympics made a big difference.

    The scandal was a major blow that figure skating has yet to recover from.
    The IOC was absolutely furious about the SLC scandal and were the one's who forced the change.

    I always look to TV contracts and right now they are at pre 2002 levels as far as skating is concerned. It is not on ESPN anymore and that in itself is a major statment. ESPN, the new cathedral of American sport no longer recognizes figure skating as a sport.

  14. #509
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That's an interesting point, too. If 13 year-old 4-foot-tall waifs are the best gynmnasts in the world, or the best figure skaters, why not let them compete for the gold medals?
    Part of me agrees with this. And I also agree with Olympia that 14 year old don't necessary make the best jumpers. I don't think the two points negate each other. Take Tara Lipinski. Let's give her some credit. Whatever her faults may have been she had an ice presence and overall quality that some the top U.S. ladies today will never have even though they are younger than her. If she had just been a jumping bean she would not have won Nagano.
    Last edited by Layfan; 11-22-2009 at 10:51 PM.

  15. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    Thanks for the shout out Janetfan! I am glad you have been watching the other disciplines. The Ladies long was pretty much a bust, I agree. However, the other medalists in the disciplines were all pretty fantastic! So one bad event in a competition isn't that bad.



    In China she had a bad short and a fairly good long. Here she had a fantastic short and a bad long. Hopefully at the GPF she puts it together
    Hopefully in Vancouver she puts it all together - yes

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