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Thread: Ladies Free Program 19:00 pm Eastern Time Saturday, November 21

  1. #421
    On the Ice 623's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    The whole purpose of CoP is that that kind of variance of "taste" scores should not happen to a large extent; it is supposed to be a little more objective. Judges shouldn't be "looking for different things"; they should be open-minded as far as styles go but looking for the same indicators of quality.

    I would find it a huge problem if a score like 6.0 was given for a PC and then another judge gave 9.25. One of these judges is extremely incompetent...or worse.
    Yes, but many things make up PCS and every judge can perceive any of these things differently.
    Let me back up may claim with an example. One of the PCS is Choreography/Composition of the programme. According to ISU website in when giving score for Choreography/Composition judges should look at:
    - Purpose (idea, consept, vision, mood)
    - Proportion (equal weight of all parts)
    - Unity (purposeful threading of all movements)
    - Utilization of Personal and Public Space
    - Pattern and Ice Coverage
    - Phrasing and Form (movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music)
    - Originalituy of Purpose, Movement and Design.

    When judges look at Joannie's perfomance and then think of these criteria they don't have the same impression and it's difficult to expect every single judge to give her a similar score, let's say anything in a range from 8.00 to 8.75. I mean, how are they supposed to know that all those criteria in her programme equal 8.50. There is not any scale clearly determining that oh this move of her arm is a great example of Originality but this little twisting of her palm wasn't really porposeful so it does not fill Unity slot. Because it all so much subjective. And in the end it does come down to individual tastes.
    One judge can think that Joannie's Choreography/Composition is generally good and her Pattern and Originality is simply superb and s/he will give her 8.75. Another judge can perceive her programme as well generally good, but some movement that are supposed to be original are in fact rather forced and not really purposeful and additionally the Proportion of the choreography is not that good either since her programme comes acroos as lacking in the choreography at the end. And s/he will give her 6.50 for Choreography/Composition. And I am perfectly okay with this.
    But when every judge marks the same skater very similarly it seems a little bit fishy for me.

  2. #422
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Hey I have a question. I've been thinking about the US ladies situation over and over in my head, and I was just wondering if anyone knows the last time Alissa put up a good short AND long program at a competition?
    I don't know but I feel that Alissa has gotten far better than before. I used to have a stereotyped image on her for being so good at non-jump elements, that none of her jumps were strong enough to be relied upon, and that she ended up doing all those jumps not knowing which may succeed. Despite the history of inconsistency and being famous for that, however, it is actually great that she has climbed up to where she is now. There have been many skaters who never overcome jumping issues despite always getting big applauds from the crowd for spins and spirals. But she does do well now when she does.
    Last edited by Bennett; 11-22-2009 at 10:41 AM.

  3. #423
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koongpa View Post
    but this competition just totally gave me a bad impression about Canada in general.


    So then:

    Canada = bad
    Canadian skaters = bad
    Canadian judges = bad
    Canadian audience = bad
    Canadian citizens = bad

    It sounds like I must live in absolutely awful country!

    Quote Originally Posted by koongpa View Post
    Of course SC takes place in Canada, but it's still an international competition. And It was a little too obvious, especially with the rediculous PCS for Joannie's terrible performance, that this competition in general was favoring Canadian skaters. This is a BIG problem, when the olympic games will take place in Canada.

    Some say home advantage is natural, and it's okay that it is reflected in the scores. I totally disagree because home advantage should only work to skater's mental state. It's wrong that home advantage directly affects the scores JUST BECAUSE. If Joannie skated her lights out in Canada, I'd be very happy for her receiving a little higher PCS than usual. But NOT when she skated with lots of doubles and shaky landings which disturbed the whole flow of the program.
    If you are arguing against home field advantage, this is not isolated just to Canada alone. Were you as outraged when Plushenko's got the scores he did in Russia? Or with Evan's PCS from Skate America? Why don't you wait and see how the Japanese skaters are marked in the GPF? If they receive high marks I expect you to get a "bad impression" of Japan then!

    BTW, as for the audience reaction to Mirai, maybe if she actually PERFORMED to the audience instead of looking down at the ice all the time, the audience would respond more.

  4. #424
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 623 View Post
    Yes, but many things make up PCS and every judge can perceive any of these things differently.
    .
    .
    .
    One judge can think that Joannie's Choreography/Composition is generally good and her Pattern and Originality is simply superb and s/he will give her 8.75. Another judge can perceive her programme as well generally good, but some movement that are supposed to be original are in fact rather forced and not really purposeful and additionally the Proportion of the choreography is not that good either since her programme comes acroos as lacking in the choreography at the end. And s/he will give her 6.50 for Choreography/Composition. And I am perfectly okay with this.
    But when every judge marks the same skater very similarly it seems a little bit fishy for me.
    I think I understand what you are saying--there is still a heavy subjectivity within the PCS, and that is one of the biggest criticisms of CoP. There is a point-scale, but no objective measure to say what deserves X points and what deserves Y points.

    I still believe judges should look for similar markers of quality within diverse styles and tastes, and to apply them consistently to various skaters at the same competition. Don't you think it is questionable when a single judge (#8) is marking a lot higher for Joannie (against the rest of the judges), and then marking Alissa a lot lower (against the rest of the judges)? There is a problem in the system (CoP is not perfect), but there is an additional problem with this particular judge.

    The same problem exists in say, an English composition course. It is not Mathematics. There is a lot that is subject to individual tastes. But hopefully a good English professor will be open to different styles and intents of writing while being able to give good feedback and fair grading.

    The same thing actually occurs in Science. Scientists don't always agree what is a good study or a bad study; what results deserve to be "big news" and what results deserve to be trashed because the study was of a low quality. That is why there are editorial boards in science magazines, especially strict for the most prestigious ones like Nature. If most of the scientists on the board agree that a study isn't very good or significant, many will not be published.

    Yes, you could say "but this piece of writing is so creative and unique!" or "this experiment's implications are very interesting!" but the whole point of having an expert panel of judges is to be able to fairly and objectively agree on what is "better" and what is "worse", and then make judgments within appropriate parameters.

    The end result isn't that big of a deal in CoP - they drop the highest and lowest marks in case such an extreme judgment happens (good system design.) But if I were in charge, I'd take that judge #8 aside and ask why they judged the way they did, and why their reasoning is so different from the others.
    Last edited by prettykeys; 11-22-2009 at 12:05 PM.

  5. #425
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katakwan View Post
    I was just wondering if you were a sage, were't you?
    I wish.

  6. #426
    Custom Title figuristka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koongpa View Post
    I used to really enjoy Joannie's skating, but this competition just totally gave me a bad impression about Canada in general.

    I know that no lady skater had the skate of their lives, but the audience reaction was too cold! I felt bad for Mirai when she was doing her bows after the program and almost nobody was clapping for her.

    Of course SC takes place in Canada, but it's still an international competition. And It was a little too obvious, especially with the rediculous PCS for Joannie's terrible performance, that this competition in general was favoring Canadian skaters. This is a BIG problem, when the olympic games will take place in Canada.

    Some say home advantage is natural, and it's okay that it is reflected in the scores. I totally disagree because home advantage should only work to skater's mental state. It's wrong that home advantage directly affects the scores JUST BECAUSE. If Joannie skated her lights out in Canada, I'd be very happy for her receiving a little higher PCS than usual. But NOT when she skated with lots of doubles and shaky landings which disturbed the whole flow of the program.
    I have even more respect for Joannie as she has grown so much as an artist and really tried to express the program dispite having such hard technical content. Perhaps though next time she will have to express just a little to control the jumps a little more. I agree with the other poster about Mirai, she has improved alot this year, but now she is getting more consistant she just has to perform the program outwardly more.

    How on earth can this give you a bad impression of Canada? Everyone said it was biased when Laura won Europeans in Finland. Sometimes a home country a skater might have a little advantage, and have the warm support of the audience but they still have to skate for it. Look what happend to Chan.

  7. #427
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cornell08 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEpXfugukE

    candid backstage exchange between Mirai and Caroline after their freeskate...its slightly heartbreaking but also very sweet.
    They are SO sweet together!

    Mirai especially, she's always so upbeat despite any circumstances.

    sigh

  8. #428
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    Haven't watched any of the Ladies FS programs, nor do I want to, or need to. I read about it already, lol.

    Just wanted to say that in my humble opinion, if I were selecting the U.S. Ladies Olympic Team right now, I would pick Flatt & Wagner, for obvious reasons. Rachael came in 5th at Worlds & that reflects in her marks, as it should, and Ashley is also becoming recognized by the international judges. Lastly, both did extremely well on the GP this season, kudos to them.

    Lol, I should've stuck to my guns this past spring & summer & at the beginning of the season, as I said Rachael is the one. Can't deny not only her consistency, but also her mental toughness, especially her mental toughness, which make for great champions. They lay it down when it counts the most!

    That said, Rachael needs to up her technical ante, keep going for that 3/3 every time out between here & the Olympics. Also, try to max out her techical score with more complex intricate moves (like Joannie Rochette has worked the system to max out her points), maybe even add a difficult sequence of some kind, ala Tara Lipinski, whom not only did a 7-triple program at the 1998 Olympics, but also included one 3/3 combo. & one 3/3 sequence. Rachael should go the Tara Lipinski route, not Sarah Hughes, she hasn't quite mastered one 3/3 combo. yet to add another one like Sarah did. As for Ashley, just keep on doing what she's doing, work on fully rotating her jumps & gaining consistency with what she has now.

    Caroline Zhang & Mirai Nagasu (the IT girls) are the future, as it should be, they each need to work on their own individual insufficiencies. That is, Caroline speed & technique, whereas Mirai fully rotating her jumps. Also, both need to gain more international exposure, go to Worlds a few times, etc. They each need to wait their turn, as the international judges are showing, just as others before them have done. It WILL come, girls, it will come, if only you both can hang on, be patient, wait your turn, look to so many other examples before you to see how other ladies have managed to hang on & get exposure & recognition. In fact, that's the one good thing about skating nowadays, ladies in their 20's no longer have to retire, they can keep on going & winning!

    Alissa Czisny, admirable to keep on skating & earning GP medals here & there, kudos to her (great role model for the younger girls), but let's be honest, she never has had mental toughness nor will she ever have it in the vein of Kwan, Lipinski, Hughes, Kim, Rochette, Flatt, et al. That doesn't take away from the beauty of her skating, but as I said from the start I wouldn't want to put her on the Olympic Team. I can see, however, why the USFSA judges made her National Champion this past year (I would have too btw), judging by how the international judges gave her such high marks during the GP despite her usual skate(s). So they figured Alissa could fall several times & still finish high at Worlds due to her PCS, which unfortunately didn't turn out that way. They won't make the same mistake this year at Nationals. Just my humble honest opinion.

    The one thing I've noticed over the decades of watching skating is that GP judging is absolutely NOTHING like the judging at Olympics (& Worlds). Two totally different animals, as it should be. Thus, if I were a skater, I would not be content thinking what may have held me up during the GP will do so at the Olympics. No, it usually tends to right itself at the Olympics. The more difficult skate wins.

    ***Note: the only exception I can think of has to be Sasha Cohen, as I thought for sure she was off the podium at the 2006 Olympics when she fell twice, but then again she didn't win, as it should be. I'm talking about w-i-n-n-i-n-g only, the winner is the one that does the more difficult routine, including jumps (ala Arakawa). Second & third is wide open, artists have a chance (ala Buttle). JMHO.***

    On a final note, I'm going to come out & just say it, lol, the Canadian Federation is now on my public enemy #1 list as the worst federation when it comes to judging (in the past I had them tied with Russia due to the fiasco they created at the 2002 Olympics, but not anymore). I'm going to keep a close eye on them at this upcoming 2010 Winter Olympics held in Vancouver, Canada. COP be damned, they go hand in hand.

  9. #429
    Down With It
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    The one thing I've noticed over the decades of watching skating is that GP judging is absolutely NOTHING like the judging at Olympics (& Worlds). Two totally different animals, as it should be. Thus, if I were a skater, I would not be content thinking what may have held me up during the GP will do so at the Olympics. No, it usually tends to right itself at the Olympics. The more difficult skate wins.
    That's very true. These high scores that the skaters are getting now likely won't translate to the big events. And that's really unfortunate given the nature of the IJS- wasn't this supposed to be some sort of "absolute" measuring stick? Yeah frickin right.

    The GP judges should really stay grounded and not get carried away with the level of competition and give the top skaters these insanely high scores that they probably wouldn't get at a larger event.

    The one thing, though, is Joannie Rochette. The Olympics will be in Canada. So if she gets a 70 (SP) or 112 (FS) for a performance like she did in SC I think I will throw something out of my window.
    Last edited by R.D.; 11-22-2009 at 12:31 PM.

  10. #430
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    I think there's often a bit of a home-court advantage, but not always. For example, remember that the Battle of the Brians took place in Canada, and it was Boitano who came out on top by an iota, not Orser. James Madison once said that "if men were angels," we wouldn't need to set up a government. If judges were angels, we'd have exactly the right evaluation of everyone, and if skaters were angels...well, Alissa would jump as consistently and heart-stoppingly as she spins. We do pretty well with what we have.

    It's been my experience (just as a viewer--never been to a skating competition there) that Canadians are good sports, both audiences and skaters. I've also noticed that Canadians in general are far more supportive of figure skating than Americans, who only seem to be interested when there's a lady who's number 1 in the world, or when a scandal comes along. (I don't mean skating fans specifically--of course we're supportive!) That's one reason I often root for Canadian skaters on general principle.

    Thanks for posting that link of Mirai comforting Caroline. I gather that they've been friends for quite some time. Caroline may be one of those people who comes out sounding abrasive because she doesn't want to show that she's hurting. Not everyone is unfailingly poised and smooth. But certainly the encounter shows them both in a good light. I agree with the poster who said that it's great when you see the skaters being friendly to one another. Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya were famously friendly, despite the fact that each was the other's main rival. And supposedly Boitano, realizing Orser's anguish on not getting the gold in his home country, deliberately didn't show too much emotion on the podium, so as not to rub it in. It's nice when people figure out how to keep the sportsmanship in sports.

  11. #431
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Canada is public enemy number 1...Oh I love it

    Big bad Canada! I guess everyone really does hate us

  12. #432
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    On the contrary, ILTS: I think Canada is one of the great skating countries, for the reasons I gave above. And, seriously, how could a country with Kurt Browning and Brian Orser, and a country that's taken in YuNa Kim and given her every kind of support, have any kind of bad skating rep!

  13. #433
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    On the contrary, ILTS: I think Canada is one of the great skating countries, for the reasons I gave above. And, seriously, how could a country with Kurt Browning and Brian Orser, and a country that's taken in YuNa Kim and given her every kind of support, have any kind of bad skating rep!
    Thanks for you post Olympia! I wasn't referring to you in that post...just many of the others in this thread.

  14. #434
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    How on earth can this give you a bad impression of Canada? Everyone said it was biased when Laura won Europeans in Finland. Sometimes a home country a skater might have a little advantage, and have the warm support of the audience but they still have to skate for it. Look what happend to Chan]
    The issue is that its not fair. This isn't the sport of lets say basketball where everyone gets the opportunity to have games in their own home court, the same amount in the regular season. And then of course in the playoffs based on how many games you won but still some homecourt games.

    A skater like Dennis Ten is never going to get a "home court" advantage more than likely. S/S have never really gotten a "home court" major competition in their careers either...So the idea that its just okay for scores to be so inflated because its home court. Is really wrong. And it is upsetting to see some of these scores. Rochette got I believe her highest PCS ever, for a long program that was really poorly skated. It's not right.

    The Olympics are really rare too, so there should really be no such thing as a home court inflation at the Olympics.
    Last edited by bekalc; 11-22-2009 at 12:52 PM.

  15. #435
    Down With It
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    I do hope they are super careful at the OLYs. One more judging controversy/scandal and skating is done...IMO.

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