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Thread: Ladies Free Program 19:00 pm Eastern Time Saturday, November 21

  1. #541
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    It seems as though skating has become all about PCS recently and jumps don't really matter. I think they SHOULD matter, and the fact that Mirai got the highest TES at SC and finished off the podium behind women who landed half the number of triple jumps she did seems bogus. It is a sport
    It wasn't as if she won the TES by a huge margin - only by about a point and half. She still had two downgrades and two edge calls as well. Amelie Lacoste landed more triples than Lepisto and Czisny as well, do you think she should have been on the podium?

  2. #542
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Okay the thing about really young/small skaters being the "best" is just that where the olympics are every 4 years, it kinda sucks for those that are just too young to go one year and then have to wait a full 4 more to have another shot. Yu Na would not fall into this category because she is even better now than she was at 15, that being said she is also the same size she was at 15 which probably helps. Mao on the other hand beat all 3 2006 ladies olympic medalists at one point or another the year before the olympics. Given her current troubles, there is a possibility she won't even go to the Olympics (though doubtful) and even if she goes she could very well end up not medaling if she keeps making the same mistakes. So for Mao if she goes to the Olympics this year and comes in say 5th place, she'd probably be pissed because if they had let her go in 2006 she probably could have won or medaled. Four years is a long time....Kimmie and Emily are basically out of the picture now even though 4 years ago they were the ones to beat. Mirai was national champion at 14 and now two years later she's grown half a foot and is struggling (though still amazing). If the judges are wanting her to wait four more years, she might not even be a force to be reckoned with anymore. Between now and the 2014 olympics at the rate she keeps growing she could be 5'8" and lose all her jumps. That's why I'm wondering if it's really fair to give the older girls a shot at going to the Olympics if the younger girls are technically better, but get lower scores because of highly controversial PCS. It seems as though skating has become all about PCS recently and jumps don't really matter. I think they SHOULD matter, and the fact that Mirai got the highest TES at SC and finished off the podium behind women who landed half the number of triple jumps she did seems bogus. It is a sport


    Is this really what happened?

    (side note: Mirai is more than just a jumper, though. Her style isn't completely developed but she's fun to watch in between jumps.)

  3. #543
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    It wasn't as if she won the TES by a huge margin - only by about a point and half. She still had two downgrades and two edge calls as well. Amelie Lacoste landed more triples than Lepisto and Czisny as well, do you think she should have been on the podium?
    Ah.

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Yes, you are absolutely right about Katerina, she transcended her sport and helped increase its popularity. (Of course, it helped that she was beautiful.) I didn't matter what country she was from.

    Maybe Kim Yuna could eventually do the same - IF she wins an Olympic gold and then sticks around for the next games, like Kat did.
    But the U.S. still needs a star for the sport to regain its luster in America. There may have been no Michelle Kwan in the 80s but Kat had an important U.S. rival in Debbie Thomas and, obviously, that kept American audiences interested. The problem isn't just that there is no Michelle Kwan - there isn't even a Debbie Thomas! (at least that's the common wisdom.)
    If the Americans had someone who could challenge Yuna (and a rivalry developed) then I'd say there's potential for her to win more US fans. But right now, there's just nobody stepping up to the plate. We've had flashes of promise (Czisny last year, Wagner this year) but our current ladies just aren't good enough. that's even MORE disappointing than having only 2 spots at the olympics.

    ETA: Something (including past years) indicates that the GP is a poor measure of how the later comps will play out. The skaters that have had rough starts will likely go back, work things out, and peak at the right time.
    Last edited by R.D.; 11-23-2009 at 12:31 PM.

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    It wasn't as if she won the TES by a huge margin - only by about a point and half. She still had two downgrades and two edge calls as well. Amelie Lacoste landed more triples than Lepisto and Czisny as well, do you think she should have been on the podium?
    Ok so Laura landed 3 clean triples, but didn't attempt any more than 3 triples. Joannie landed 3 clean triples, 1 really messed up hand down triple (not marked as UR but sure looked like it to me) and a stepped out of another triple , Alissa landed 3 clean triples and 1 UR triple and fell twice, and Mirai landed 5 clean triples with no falls. Mirai also has great spins and speed and footwork, so is it REALLY fair that she missed the podium given how the other skaters above her delivered? I don't think so

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Mirai landed 5 clean triples with no falls. Mirai also has great spins and speed and footwork, so is it REALLY fair that she missed the podium given how the other skaters above her delivered? I don't think so
    She did finish third in the long program. If Mirai had performed to the audience more she probably would have medaled. You can't skate a program looking down at the ice the majority of the time along with no expression on your face. Say what you want about Lepisto and her jumps (i'm not a big fan)- but she actually performed her program and she has the ability to draw you in.

  7. #547
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    She did finish third in the long program. If Mirai had performed to the audience more she probably would have medaled. You can't skate a program looking down at the ice the majority of the time along with no expression on your face. Say what you want about Lepisto and her jumps (i'm not a big fan)- but she actually performed her program and she has the ability to draw you in.
    I think a lot of it comes down that Carmen is the wrong program for Mirai! She doesn't have the same performance issues during her short. Every time she skates her long I always think 'what were they THINKING when they chose this music for her?':frown2:

  8. #548
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Then what's the problem? If they are not the best skaters, then they will not win any prizes against the ladies who are the best skaters. That's why we have skating contests, to see who is the best.
    You really are in favour of no age limits, are you?

    Then lets allow Russia to send their 12-year olds. That's going to be big for the popularity of skating. We have got young children participating in our sport - yeah! They aren't even teenagers yet, I bet the other sports don't have that. Liza could probably win the Silver, even the Gold - if Kim screws up. Adelina or Polina are good for Bronze. Don't forget Kanako Murakami, also not eligible - she could be another possibility for a medal. Why do we even bother with grown women and their faulty bodies? Juliet got married at 13, why not allow little girls to win senior medals at 12?

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    I agree Medusa. Placing a child in the spotlight of the Olympics is a horrible idea. Children should not be exposed to that kind of pressure as a child and latter on down the road it could have serious and dangerous implications for the child. It is a very slippery slope if age limits are thrown away. Should we have 10 or 11 year olds competing in the senior division? How young is too young?

    ETA: I suggest everyone who thinks age limits should be thrown away should educate themselves on the story of Tracey Wainman and how her life was almost destroyed by the pressure.

    http://www.torontolife.com/features/ice-storm/?pageno=1
    Last edited by i love to skate; 11-23-2009 at 01:46 PM.

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    zhang should sue==she was undermarked in the short and long--alissay didn't skate faster.
    but I know why Zhang isn't up their now-beside being chinese american--She Jumps LIKE TARA and flexibility like sasha-and artistry like sasha-no emotion.

    mirai is begining to jump like michelle and because of frank has artistry like michelle.

    But yes zhang sue, meissner sue the usoc-usfsa, ioc, isu, and zhang sue the older gold medalist why--discrimintation based on race--the usfsa didn't help you get them (tara-ashley-white on white), dorothy for rachel- you
    have white skaters pushing white skaters--brian for alissa--
    Why sue if the THE Federations and the IOC AND ISU isn't going to play by the rules-/fair like it states in the olympic motto-why should the athletes play fair.

    look what fair play got michelle--oops forgot she chinese american--delibrately keep her out of gold medal in 1998 all you need to do is see how the white girls make mistakes overlook win-get high scores.
    michelle chineses-because figure skating is a racist sport-she had to skate betterr, not because the others were better only because they was white and she was chinese.

    the SPONSORS who support figure skating Endorse and Approve of Racism And Discrimnation are just as guilty as the judges who are in the sport of figure skating. it seems to me the older skaters prefer racism and discrimation at the loss of the fan base-as long as the judges, ioc, isu, usfsa , OGmedalist get what they want-the heck with how the sport seems to the public being racist, discriminatory everything bad.
    how by putting figure skaters on packages and products for the olympics and backing the movement at all cost.

    ALSO IT IS OKAY TO RiP TO SHREDS THE CONFIDENCE a CHILD HAS But NOT and ADULT LIKE ALISSa , Ashley etc.

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    You really are in favour of no age limits, are you?

    Then lets allow Russia to send their 12-year olds. That's going to be big for the popularity of skating. We have got young children participating in our sport - yeah! They aren't even teenagers yet, I bet the other sports don't have that. Liza could probably win the Silver, even the Gold - if Kim screws up. Adelina or Polina are good for Bronze. Don't forget Kanako Murakami, also not eligible - she could be another possibility for a medal. Why do we even bother with grown women and their faulty bodies? Juliet got married at 13, why not allow little girls to win senior medals at 12?

    If the 12 year olds are that good I don't see why it's a problem. They might not be that good at 16 so let them compete now and see if they hold up. Maybe they will continue to be amazing. Yu Na has been amazing every year since 2005 and will probably continue for some more years to come. I mean if you think about how a lot of kids don't even start skating until they are 7 or 8, being that good at 12 is a big accomplishment . Plus it would be nice to see figure skating being focused on jumps again. Though Joannie, Alissa, and Laura are all lovely skaters, having the podium at a senior GP event being represented by ladies who each only landed 3 clean triples seems a little bit disappointing. That being said, I think Skate Canada was just a fluky competition, as we still see 7 triple free programs often from the top skaters when they are on
    Last edited by silverlake22; 11-23-2009 at 02:35 PM.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    ...Liza could probably win the Silver, even the Gold - if Kim screws up. Adelina or Polina are good for Bronze.
    I can't tell if you are serious about this evaluation of these young skaters' abilities or not. If it is really true that a 12-year-old can outskate everyone in the world (like Sonia Henie did), to me that puts the question in a whole new light.

    If it is not true, then what are we arguing about? The 12-year-olds will not make the Olympic team, the more mature skaters will -- problem solved.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    I agree Medusa. Placing a child in the spotlight of the Olympics is a horrible idea. Children should not be exposed to that kind of pressure as a child and latter on down the road it could have serious and dangerous implications for the child. It is a very slippery slope if age limits are thrown away. Should we have 10 or 11 year olds competing in the senior division? How young is too young?

    ETA: I suggest everyone who thinks age limits should be thrown away should educate themselves on the story of Tracey Wainman and how her life was almost destroyed by the pressure.

    http://www.torontolife.com/features/ice-storm/?pageno=1
    Golly, that is one scary story, ILTS. Yes, that's one reason I'm very leery of letting kids that young into the big leagues. When they're especially good, it's even more stressful on them, ironically, because everyone expects them to carry their country's hopes on their tiny backs. It might work if the family is especially vigilant, but otherwise, it's like throwing them into a shark tank--and we're the sharks. I think the Hughes family and the Kwan family are examples of people who protected their children, but when you find a family that's got stresses on it already, like, say, the Bobeks (or some of the better-known tennis parents), it doesn't always go well for the kid.

    But I repeat, it's also not so good for the quality of skating. A high jump is great, but we've frequently discussed the fact that a lot of the prodigies have questionable technique--even Mao, and certainly Caroline Zhang--and then there's the matter of the flow of movements across the ice, as well as musical interpretation. There's a certain "ick" factor in seeing a twelve-year-old skate to Carmen. So there's going to be an awful lot of fluffy music in major key in our futures if the average age of a "ladies'" singles skater is twelve or so. It's either going to be Boccherini, the Nutcracker, or--if a really young prodigy comes along--Raffi.

  14. #554
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I can't tell if you are serious about this evaluation of these young skaters' abilities or not. If it is really true that a 12-year-old can outskate everyone in the world (like Sonia Henie did), to me that puts the question in a whole new light.

    If it is not true, then what are we arguing about? The 12-year-olds will not make the Olympic team, the more mature skaters will -- problem solved.
    Or maybe the 12 year olds are getting held up because of the cuteness/prodigy factor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    I agree Medusa. Placing a child in the spotlight of the Olympics is a horrible idea. Children should not be exposed to that kind of pressure as a child and latter on down the road it could have serious and dangerous implications for the child. It is a very slippery slope if age limits are thrown away. Should we have 10 or 11 year olds competing in the senior division? How young is too young?

    ETA: I suggest everyone who thinks age limits should be thrown away should educate themselves on the story of Tracey Wainman and how her life was almost destroyed by the pressure.

    http://www.torontolife.com/features/ice-storm/?pageno=1
    Ahh, okay that is a very scary story. Maybe not such a good idea. I will say though that Mao Asada was a phenom at 13 and at this point seems to be mentally and physically healthy and well behaved as far as I know, but she at least was well protected and only competed in junior events until she reached the eligible age for senior events. So maybe letting 12 years olds compete with the big girls is a bad idea, I am just getting very disappointed over what skating is turning into. Jumps seem like not very important now, and winning is so subjective and controversial. I don't event know if the whole jump thing is even a factor of age and size, or if there's just been a lull in talented skaters recently (obviously not Yu Na and a handful of others). I mean, Sarah Hughes did two triple-triple combinations to win the olympics in 2002, and though she was only 16 , she was 5'5" and 122 pounds with a healthy, grown up body. Shizuka did triple-triple-triple combinations at olympic practices in 2006 and she was also no little sprite. So women clearly CAN do the big jumps, triple-triples, etc, just right now most of them aren't doing them. I guess we will just have to wait to see what the future brings and hope the CoP doesn't get more confusing in the mean time...

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