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Thread: Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

  1. #1
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

    Watching Mao going back to last season it has become clear that something is effecting her skating.

    Some have suggested she has grown, another said she is too old.
    Has Mao grown so much in the last year or two? Maybe an inch is all I would say.
    As to her age, she still appears quite healthy and energetic to me.

    Some have suggested Tat, the coach of so many champions over the years has ruined Mao. That just sounds like an excuse to me.

    We also hear that the meddling of the JSF is to blame for Mao's decline. Somehow I doubt if the JSF is doing anything but supporting Mao to the best of their ability.

    The most obvious conclusion seems to be that the recent CoP rule changes have hurt Mao badly, enough at this point to have shaken her confidence.

    Shouldn't we be wondering and worried that one the most talented skaters in the history of the sport has lost so much and so quickly?

    Anybody care to explain how the decline of one of skating's greatest and most marketable stars is good for figure skating?

    And will Mao bounce back in time for Vancouver?
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-04-2009 at 12:30 PM.

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    Good insight!!

    I think COP does destroy some aspect of figure skating, as it's making skaters 'cut and paste'. All these jumps, spins and elements are repeat after another. Not to mention it's nip picking every little details.

    Part of Mao problem start with when COP start nip picking edge calls, and under rotatation problem. While COP is not solely to blame for Mao problem, it doesn't help either. Not just Mao, many skaters suffer with COP rule changes and we are seeing more and more skaters only peak for one or two season and decline quickly b/c the system is too demanding to follow.

    Can she bounce back for Vancouver? Only time will tell and we will see what stage she is in in December when she compete at Japanese National championship. What Mao needs is a coach who understand COP system inside out. And don't be such a hard critic on herself. I mean no body can be perfect and flaws are what make certains skaters appealing.

    Forget about flutz. Forget about making history with 3A. Just follow the rules and what is work, instead of making unrealistics goals and keep pressing 'self destruct' button.

    I sure hope she is bounce back to her former self and remind everyone why she was a world champion.

  3. #3
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    The question is - how far would Asada have gotten under 6.0, especially with her jump layout? In 2005 she was ridiculed for her jump layout, here and elsewhere. "Only Flips, Loops and Axels - no Salchow, no Toeloop, not real Lutz". Would 6.0 crowned her a multiple Champion without a Triple Toeloop, without a Triple Salchow? Plus all the double-footing, that she always was prone to - those jumps wouldn't have been counted under 6.0 (at least not normally).

    I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.

  4. #4
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.


    Did Mao not win Worlds under COP? Her downfall has been being coached by Tat, using programs that do not play to her strengths, having not so great technique on her jumps, and putting too much emphasis on her triple axels. If all of these factors are visible to fans I have no idea what the Japanese federation is thinking in allowing her to continue down this path. COP has nothing to do with her struggles, IMO.
    Last edited by i love to skate; 11-04-2009 at 12:53 PM.

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    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    No, I don't think is COP. I think it's all in Mao's head. Even when you see her on the ice getting ready, you can tell she's not comfortable. Maybe she was used being the skater to be chased and now baaam Yuna scores 70+ in a SP and gets a 10 point lead. Meanwhile she is dealing with a 3Axel that seems to abandon her when she executes it in competition.

    COP doesn't create a repetition of jumps... I mean theres what, 6 different tipes of jumps (toe, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel), of course skaters will be bound to repeat them... if anything they aren't risking much, by not doing certain jumps.

    UR calls are out of control, I don't see why you should get twice penalized by having it downgraded, and then getting deducted GOE. But I'm getting away from the subject.

    I think it is an issue of confidence. Maybe Mao thinks the 3A is what will place her ahead of the pack, and maybe the easy solution (changing her combo jump) would actually place her closer to her goal. I imaging executing a 3A requires a lot of confidence, and if she has problems there, it will reflect in her presentation. I don't think is a matter of age or TAT (if she was baaaad to her, I don't think she would be silly to stick with her). I just hope Mao can figure it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru View Post
    No, I don't think is COP. I think it's all in Mao's head. Even when you see her on the ice getting ready, you can tell she's not comfortable. Maybe she was used being the skater to be chased and now baaam Yuna scores 70+ in a SP and gets a 10 point lead. Meanwhile she is dealing with a 3Axel that seems to abandon her when she executes it in competition.

    COP doesn't create a repetition of jumps... I mean theres what, 6 different tipes of jumps (toe, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel), of course skaters will be bound to repeat them... if anything they aren't risking much, by not doing certain jumps.

    UR calls are out of control, I don't see why you should get twice penalized by having it downgraded, and then getting deducted GOE. But I'm getting away from the subject.

    I think it is an issue of confidence. Maybe Mao thinks the 3A is what will place her ahead of the pack, and maybe the easy solution (changing her combo jump) would actually place her closer to her goal. I imaging executing a 3A requires a lot of confidence, and if she has problems there, it will reflect in her presentation. I don't think is a matter of age or TAT (if she was baaaad to her, I don't think she would be silly to stick with her). I just hope Mao can figure it out.
    Whole post and agree 100% with your post. Hope she can work with some sports Psychologist.

  7. #7
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Mao skated her whole junior and senior career under CoP. It never bothered her in the begining. Of course growing two years ago hurt her some in that she does not get the height that she used to in her jumps, thus is not subject to under roattion. Yes, CoP hurt in that they changed the rules so you don't have shot if you lutz or underroatte (look what happened to Kimmie). Then of course Yu-na came, which would be a problem under any sysytem, but especially since she and David Wilson and brian orser are CoP wizards and make the judges drop down and worship the mighty Yu-na.

    Mao's only weapon is her triple axel (which is worth a lot, nobody else can do) so she puts an emense amount of pressure on landing it, which as anybody in sports will tell you is a recipe for failure. How many times does a baseball player hit a grand slam when down by three runs in the bottom of the ninth?

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.
    Should the question be "how would Mao do under 6.0?

    That may be a good rhetorical question - but since Mao is skating under CoP I don't think that point, although well taken - is so relevant.
    But since you asked I believe the beauty of Mao's skating, her superior postions and extensions, and her incredible skating skills would have done extremely well under 6.0.

    The blame has been placed almost exclusively on Tat and the JSF for the past few weeks so I thought it would be interesting to look at this from a different angle.

    The subject of Mao and CoP has not been discussed and it is reasonable topic to consider.
    Thanks for all the views on this topic. I remain unsure why Mao is having such a bad season. Maybe we should start blaming her costumes

    .
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-04-2009 at 01:39 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    "To every thing there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven."

    Count me in the too old category (literally. )

    “There is a tide in the affairs of men, which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries.”

    IMHO the ISU rule that killed Mao was not the CoP but rather the age rule that prevented her from mopping up the ice with Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya in 2006. Mao beat Arakawa three times in the fall of 2005 (Cup of China, Eric Bompard, Japanese Nationals), she beat Sasha at Eric Bompard, and she crushed Slutskaya at the Grand Prix Final by more than 8 points. The next year she scored 199 points at NHK.

    Michelle Kwan was world champion at age fifteen in 1996. If the Olympics had been held that year, she would have been golden.

    Instead -- the tide comes in and the tide goes out. Fourteen-year-old Tara Lipinski won the U.S. and World championships, then the Olympic gold medal at 15. Slam, bam, thank you ma’am.

    This is not to say that every skater peaks at a precocious age. Yu-na Kim and Kristi Yamaguchi hit their stride at 19. Maria Butyrskaya at 26. But no one is the fastest gunslinger in town forever.

  10. #10
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    changes in rules hurt her

    I do not think it COP, but changes in rules. I am neither saying that the rules should not have changed nor agreeing with the conspiracy theory that changes were introduce specifically to attack Mao. But it is still true that Mao was one of those skaters who were hit by these changes.

    Namely, her flutzing and a slight UR in 3F-3Lo combo have become severely penalized. These were not considered as a problem in 2005-6 or 2006-7.

    Stricter calls on flutzing and slight UR in 3F-3Lo would be contributing a lot to her declining confidence.

    She is trying to solve the problem with a sole reliance on 3A, which is pretty destructive.

    As I said earlier, I do not necessarily say that rules should not have changed (although I do not necessarily agree with all the changes, either). But perhaps things would have been easier for Mao if these stricker rules had been introduced when she had been younger.
    Her flutz and 3F-3Lo used to be evaluated so positively until recently and things suddenly changed. now, she seems to have too little confident in these jumps to put them into programs despite that perhaps she has not technically lost these jumps.
    Adjusting to something newer at the middle of career is not easy.
    Last edited by Bennett; 11-04-2009 at 02:21 PM.

  11. #11
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    CoP has destroyed everything, janetfan.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5gTN0xQ__M

    Everything!

    *Smashes plate*


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Count me in the too old category (literally. )

    “There is a tide in the affairs of men, which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries.”

    IMHO the ISU rule that killed Mao was not the CoP but rather the age rule that prevented her from mopping up the ice with Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya in 2006. Mao beat Arakawa three times in the fall of 2005 (Cup of China, Eric Bompard, Japanese Nationals), she beat Sasha at Eric Bompard, and she crushed Slutskaya at the Grand Prix Final by more than 8 points. The next year she scored 199 points at NHK.

    Michelle Kwan was world champion at age fifteen in 1996. If the Olympics had been held that year, she would have been golden.

    Instead -- the tide comes in and the tide goes out. Fourteen-year-old Tara Lipinski won the U.S. and World championships, then the Olympic gold medal at 15. Slam, bam, thank you ma’am.

    This is not to say that every skater peaks at a precocious age. Yu-na Kim and Kristi Yamaguchi hit their stride at 19. Maria Butyrskaya at 26. But no one is the fastest gunslinger in town forever.

    I am not sure whether mao would have won the gold at 2006
    olympics, especially considering Mao an Yuna are of the same age and if Mao was allowed so would yuna be allowed to qualify for Olympics.

    Many people only remember that Mao won GPF, but she lost to yuna at world Juniors. Yuna successfully completed all her jumps and did a 3f+3t and 2a+3t, and she was always musical and that helps in PCS.
    Last edited by life684; 11-04-2009 at 02:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    If Mao and Yu-Na were in competition, Arakawa would have been more serious about doing her 3-3 and probably still would have won. She peaked at the Olympics and was up to the challenge.

    Sasha and Irina may have been off the podium, though.

  14. #14
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    If anything COP have seem to widen the gap between the men and women seeing how it has effected the two disciplines differently; As the men field grows larger more competitive and artistic the womens field dwindles and becomes a game of who can fully rotate;
    Last edited by enlight78; 11-04-2009 at 02:47 PM.

  15. #15
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    If Mao and Yu-Na were in competition, Arakawa would have been more serious about doing her 3-3 and probably still would have won. She peaked at the Olympics and was up to the challenge.

    Sasha and Irina may have been off the podium, though.
    I have seem both Mao and Yuna from that year and their Jr World performances were really good - but as long as Shiz remained on her feet and skated the way she did she would have beaten them both and I think rather convincingly.

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