Belbin and Agosto have withdrawn

[jcoates]

That is an excellent point. There was always a tacit agreement in figure skating that international judges should not be so impolite as to disregard the wishes of member federations with regard to their own skaters.

I remember this was a point of contention in 1998 when Tara Lipinski (the U.S. number two) was palced ahead of Mivchelle kwan (number one at U.S. nationals.) That outcome was regarded as ungentlemanly.

This does not always hold true. Of course the best recent example other than Kwan/Lipinski that jumps to mind is that Yagudin never won Russian nationals but beat Plushenko every time but once at worlds. Petrenko was 3rd at Soviet Nationals in 92 behind Urmanov and won Olympics. At 96 Worlds where Eldredge was the US silver medalist behind Galindo, both skated very well in that competition and medalled. Yet Todd was first and Rudy was third. The same reversal in placement happened in 91 worlds with Yamaguchi and Harding and 85 Worlds when Klimova and Ponomarenko were actually the Soviet national champs over Bestemianova and Bukin but wound up second the rest of the season and the quadrennial. So there is precedent for the national number 2 or even 3 from a strong country coming out ahead.

[life684]

I, like many indians enjoyed D/W 's OD, it is quite different from all the eastern european dances and all the Flamencos. But the problem with the dance is they are bending so many rules, that it does look they are broken the whole concept of OD.

If you show this dance to any indian (born and grown up in India ), they will enjoy it and consider it as a tribute to Bollywood. but don't tell details like it is meant to be a Indian folk dance, and the dance they are performing is Kathak. Then like me, they will have very serious reservation about the dance.

As for bending the rules, they could have taken music that a Kathak dancer dance to (a hindustani music piece perhaps), even if they wanted to do a bollywood song use from Pakeeza or Umrao Jaan. Instead they went for popular alternative. The first song that D/W are skating to is probably inspired by Kathak, other two are not, infact last song was heavily influenced by Odissi (another of Indian classical dances).

Costumes are good and look very Indian, but they are not very kathak costumes. When others are sticking to mostly authentic costume (which mostly sores ur eye), she is wearing sexy costume. but may be she should wear it to a wedding not while doing Kathak dance.

I know it is difficult to bring kathak moves to ice, but not this difficult that the entire dance has lost its essence and have become something else. Moves of this dance are more like what my friends used to tease me when they hear bollywood.

Ultimately to Igor and Marina, they are enough houses (Gharannas) of the Kathak i don't think u need to make another one.

Given that such a small proportion of the audience will understand the lyrics in D/W's OD, all the more focus will fall on their characterization of Indian dance in general ( which is excellent) and their timing, use of the music etc. The overall effect is utterly charming.

Indian dances give lots of importance to facial expressions and hand movement... if ur not able to change ur expression to the lyrics, ur by no means being true to the dance. it is ok for say a mediocre team to do it, but not for a team with olympic title aspirations.

I'm personally dreading the Aboriginal dance.What sort of aborigine are they depicting? Is it Australian? Or is "Aborigine" meant to be taken in a more generic way, which would give them more leeway.This couple has never impressed me as being particularly artistic or creative.( Or tasteful, for that matter, but I know not everyone will agree..) So I don't have a lot of confidence in how they'll handle the problems inherent in their choice...What sort of costumes will they wear? Nude body suits with a few bits of grass and feathers ?

I think Domnina was clear that the costume will be true to the dance, i personally don't think aborigines wear feathers, may be i could tell u first hand accord by the middle of next year when i move to Australia. As for D/S, i have liked them since i saw their world junior dance in way back 2003 (i think), i prefer their dancing style, their extension to other dancers.
Again as i have been clear through out the post i am not russian or from that part of the world , but i prefer russian D/S the most...again saying that i never got G/G in pairs, and could well explain why i prefer D/S over Zueva group.

If Australian aborigines, men and women are not known to dance together much, yet ice dancers should be in close contact much of the time, so...???

By ur own argument this could be ignored. personally would like to see what they do with the dance as i know it this is a very slow dance.

P.S English is not my third language, so i hope i haven't made enough mistake to make it look like another language.

[Hsuhs]

As for D/S, i have liked them since i saw their world junior dance in way back 2003 (i think), i prefer their dancing style, their extension to other dancers.

And, unlike with D/W, you've never had a problem with authenticity of Domnina - Shabalin's ODs?
Like these vodka-balalaika-perestroika ODs??!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_7Cl-98o1o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez55HTtlBxg

[Charlotte Elizabeth]

Again as i have been clear through out the post i am not russian or from that part of the world , but i prefer russian D/S the most...again saying that i never got G/G in pairs, and could well explain why i prefer D/S over Zueva group. .

Would you please explain?

[colleen o'neill]

gee, life684 , I don't expect we're ever going to reach total agreement , but then variety is the spice of life. I've never been very impressed with the DomShabs. Obviously, they must be very good skaters to be where they are , but I'm afraid I find them esthetically boring. I don't see any really great 'line' in their skating and it seems to me their legs are seldom matched. Their programs often leave me with the impression of a wild race from one highlight to the next. Some of those highlights may be very attractive , but I don't find the whole experience very satisfying.

We're just at opposing ends of the spectrum, because all I can say about G&G , and Zueva's choreographic skill is....exquisite.

So, leaving all that aside...It's true that these ODs are interpretations of folk or country dances, otherwise not much skating would get done. Just as in a ballet there are character dances depicting folk or national dances..but it's still ballet.

I was being a bit facetious with the reference to grass and feathers , although there could be some. Actually, and this could be worse..the main component of Australian aboriginal costume is designs painted on the body..oh, and handprints..frequently on the chest.

The dances have a lot of short bursts of stamping ending in frozen poses, lots of knee wobbling and they often depict animals..emus, kangaroos.. or the hunting of animals..if you look on You Tube right now, you'll find at least 3 versions of a dance enacting a crocodile attacking an unwary fisherman. Women act out gathering plants for healing,etc. and generally use shorter more shuffling steps than the men...I don't know , I don't say it can't be done. I just say it would be very tricky to do well, and I have grave reservations about whether D/S and their choreographers are the ones who can do it.

BTW..bravo to you on your use of your third laguage..I have only one..

[bigsisjiejie]

I, like many indians enjoyed D/W 's OD, it is quite different from all the eastern european dances and all the Flamencos. But the problem with the dance is they are bending so many rules, that it does look they are broken the whole concept of OD.

If you show this dance to any indian (born and grown up in India ), they will enjoy it and consider it as a tribute to Bollywood. but don't tell details like it is meant to be a Indian folk dance, and the dance they are performing is Kathak. Then like me, they will have very serious reservation about the dance.
<and rest of post>

Your points are valid about D/W's dance, but I think you are taking the intent far too literally. The technical panel and judges certainly are giving the "Folk and Country Dance" theme the broadest possible license for skaters to invent and interpret and are apparently not looking for absolute authenticity. Otherwise, they'd be dinging the skaters doing American "Country" left and right, as there's nothing really authentic about those dances either, and particularly skating to modern country/pop music not traditional folk music. Let's all remember that ice dance is a European invention, and floor dances that originated in Europe (flamencos, waltzes, etc.) tend to translate reasonably well to ice in terms of keeping the flavor, theme and sometimes even similar steps. With dance traditions from other parts of the world...it's more of a stretch to put them to ice with any sort of choreography and music that is judge-, COP-, and audience-pleasing. You have to take some liberties to make it work, and that's what D/W have done.

I am most interested in seeing this aborigine dance from D/S. I can't imagine how an "authentic" aboriginal dance can be put successfully to ice, but glad to see somebody trying it out. Anybody remember the Duchesnay's 1988 "Jungle Dance" (or whatever they called it--it was actually an FD)? It was done to drumming music, was very different for the times, and IIRC not well received by judges, but like most of the audience, I thought it was a brilliant idea. I think judges these days are more flexible and willing to tolerate some diversity in program concepts. And it's Ice Dance, there's no need to come up with programs fit only for authentic performances in a Museum of Ethnography and Anthropology.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I loved K/O's 1999 FD (the jungle one).

[~tapdancer]

Excellent post, bigsisjiejie!

You stated perfectly what I wanted to say to life684, but you did it so much more eloquently than I could have.

life684, I suspect that your displeasure with D/W's OD has more to do with your dislike of D/W themselves since you obviously are giving Dom/Shabs a much looser license to interpret their OD even though none of us have yet to see it.

[colleen o'neill]

to bigsisjiejie from me too. I'm glad you mentioned the American country dances as an example ( S/B have another great OD there)..And the Duschenays jungle-themed FD is still memorable today ( their OD that year was, I think,the fabulous and humour filled tango )..well, they did have a top notch choreographer in Christopher Dean..the K/O piece didn't do much for me, then or now.

But obviously life684 knows a lot about Indian dance, and it's hard to distance oneself in a case like that. I'm glad the traditional, stylized facial expressions haven't been accentuated...I'd hate to see another B&B style, over the top expression trend get started..

Re; Duschenays' tango - that's OSP, not OD. I was forgetting evolution...boy, I feel ancient !

[bigdeal]

It is really said, if it is a real health issue, and I wish her a speedy recovery.

The "second though" could be something else, because Linichuk has a tendency to make her students to withdraw because of health problem, when it is something terribly wrong, and the "status" of them endangered.

Remember the GPF Final 2008 (belbin/agosto out), and Eurochamps.2008., when Shabalin felt on the CD, becoming 5th in that part, they withdraw....

In this undecided season anything can happen. There are no clear favourites, everything can count, even if you compete in a bit sub-par form.
Domnina-Shabalin was prepared to win OGM since last year, but they couldn't really shine enough to secure everything.
The relatively low points of Belbin/Agosto should make the feeling something need to be done to win later. Very possibly " we just has re-think a few details and understand the judges' wishes. We created a new program. We have a lots of new things, PLEASE, give us NEW (better) points!:"
For that possibility they need to have a break before the next competition.
They have far better chance to beat Davis/White in front of the American judges at the National, than in front of the International judges in the GPF, where it is still an issue, why Davis/White didn't medal at the Worldch. 2009....
I didn't want to be roud, and I really hope it is just a short-termine tooth problem.
And if it is so, I'm terribly sorry, about the things I wrote!!

[life684]

Your points are valid about D/W's dance, but I think you are taking the intent far too literally. The technical panel and judges certainly are giving the "Folk and Country Dance" theme the broadest possible license for skaters to invent and interpret and are apparently not looking for absolute authenticity. Otherwise, they'd be dinging the skaters doing American "Country" left and right, as there's nothing really authentic about those dances either, and particularly skating to modern country/pop music not traditional folk music. Let's all remember that ice dance is a European invention, and floor dances that originated in Europe (flamencos, waltzes, etc.) tend to translate reasonably well to ice in terms of keeping the flavor, theme and sometimes even similar steps. With dance traditions from other parts of the world...it's more of a stretch to put them to ice with any sort of choreography and music that is judge-, COP-, and audience-pleasing. You have to take some liberties to make it work, and that's what D/W have done.

I only commented on D/W dance since many have called it authentically representing Indian culture, Best OD of the year ... blah blah. I just wanted point out some of the serious flaws with the dance.

As for difficulty in bringing Kathak to ice dancing, my guess is it shouldn't be too hard (i am not suggesting it is going to be easy), there are lots of similarities between Kathak and Flamenco .

I am most interested in seeing this aborigine dance from D/S. I can't imagine how an "authentic" aboriginal dance can be put successfully to ice, but glad to see somebody trying it out. Anybody remember the Duchesnay's 1988 "Jungle Dance" (or whatever they called it--it was actually an FD)? It was done to drumming music, was very different for the times, and IIRC not well received by judges, but like most of the audience, I thought it was a brilliant idea. I think judges these days are more flexible and willing to tolerate some diversity in program concepts. And it's Ice Dance, there's no need to come up with programs fit only for authentic performances in a Museum of Ethnography and Anthropology.

Domnina and Shabalin at the Junior worlds in 2003 . It is afro - latin dance, but this would be probably closest D/S have done to their present OD.

You stated perfectly what I wanted to say to life684, but you did it so much more eloquently than I could have.

life684, I suspect that your displeasure with D/W's OD has more to do with your dislike of D/W themselves since you obviously are giving Dom/Shabs a much looser license to interpret their OD even though none of us have yet to see it.

Sorry u suspect this way, i wasn't able to see the beauty of their skating you seem to like... but if that make me a hater, so be it.

interestingly many (no person in particular) people have already criticised D/S music selection, dance etc even before anyone have seen the dances. So is that hatred towards D/S?

[colleen o'neill]

^ Speaking for myself, I'm not exactly criticizing their dance (not having seen it) just expressing my sense of foreboding ,based on past egregious liberties I've seen taken by many teams, D/S included. If handled well it could be wonderful, if not, it could be laughable.

The costumes for that 2003 OD, while suitably demure for juniors, had nothing much to do with their music ( might have added a lot to use an African print fabric ).While OK, the effect of the program wasn't a standout.

But as seniors, they had another African/ Latin fusion OD for 2006 , where again (but in a different way ) costumes and music didn't seem to mesh, unless someone thought that the African influence justified putting her in a nude body suit , then wrapping fringe around her so that every time she turned she looked naked..which would be pretty warped thinking. Whatever the reasoning ,it came across as a cheap ploy to grab attention through titillation. It distracted from their actual skating.

I don't think we can look to either of these programs to project what this OD will be. The music is so different. Aboriginal percussion is far less complicated , and digeridoo ( how could they not feature it?) may be hypnotic, but not too melodic.

We'll just have to wait and see.