Top 10 Ladies in Skating History?

prettykeys · Nov 30, 2009

Olympia said:
You're not dreaming it, Prettykeys. Many people have commented on the negative effects of discontinuing figures training. In fact, one person who has publicly said that today's skaters would benefit from learning figures is none other than Janet Lynn, whose medal haul suffered from her weakness in figures. Definitely a facility with figures improves a skater's stroking.

Fascinating! The very skater who initiated the removal of Compulsory Figures from competition...

Blades of Passion said:
Figures are very unnecessary.

Coaches should be teaching their students blade control. Having a competition to determine who can do the best figures is a waste of time.

There is a "skating skills" program component score. If a skater is lacking in this area then they will be marked down for it.

I don't see skaters from the school figures era having stronger skating skills. Or at least, the best skaters from those times weren't any stronger than the best skaters of today.

Perhaps lesser skaters in modern times have weaker skating skills and would be more forced to improve if the school figures existed, but that's not a very good argument. If those skaters wanted to be on top then they would be trying to improve their skating skills anyway. Introducing school figures wouldn't suddenly make them amazing.

Well, you did once say that Michelle Kwan had some of the strongest skating skills of lady skaters in history...even she supposedly did Figures up to the 4th level (or some such thing.)

The teaching of Figures doesn't necessarily have to go very far, and I certainly don't want it re-introduced into competition. But there really is a beauty in the skating technique of even mediocre skaters of the older era that is rare these days.

Kwanford Wife · Nov 30, 2009

What a great thread!!! I don't have too many edits to this list but I have a couple of comments and opinions...

Yuna needs to earn her place on this list...She has the talent, but this is a list about longevity and ability to have lasting impact. And that isn't made in two seasons. Why not? Because last year we'd have Mao on this list based on the criteria of dominance at one moment in time.

I too remember Midori as the skater who jumped off the ice...not in a disrespectful fashion but as the most random skating thing I ever saw... However, to have Chen Lu on this list instead is a bit of a head scratcher... Butterfly Lovers wasn't THAT great...

Kat should've been higher up...

Michelle Kwan - nothing to add about this remarkable young woman. I just like typing her name... She's the greatest of all time.

Now here is a duo that should've been included - Tanya Harding & Nancy Kerrigan. No, their impact wasn't positive. No, on their own either were all that great. But together... wow. Biggest single action to positively impact an olympic sport. It ain't pretty, but its true.

Tonichelle · Nov 30, 2009

a lot of skaters from the figures era who hated them when they had to do them, have come back and said that figures served a purpose, maybe not in competition but certainly in learning control.

MKFSfan · Nov 30, 2009

prettykeys said:
Fascinating! The very skater who initiated the removal of Compulsory Figures from competition...

Well, you did once say that Michelle Kwan had some of the strongest skating skills of lady skaters in history...even she supposedly did Figures up to the 4th level (or some such thing.)

The teaching of Figures doesn't necessarily have to go very far, and I certainly don't want it re-introduced into competition. But there really is a beauty in the skating technique of even mediocre skaters of the older era that is rare these days.

WHich is why I can sit and watch Yuka or Michelle just stroke around the ice all day. :love:

I think COP has changed a lot of the way coaches are bringing up their students. At 1st, so much emphasis has been placed upon spins and spirals, being super bendy and being able to beillmann all over the place was the way to maximize points. Now more recently, edge calls and underrotations are killing some. Perhaps this is a step in the right direction and coaches will be forced to spend more time on basics, improving on edges and getting jumps fully rotated.

I remember Nicks saying he told NNN and Sasha to work on their flexibility and spins, even under 6.0, and while the two were very impressive spinners and had great flexibility, they were lacking in secure basics on their jumps and skating skills. And that generation was probably the 1st class to come up after figures were a thing of the past (Michelle was already starting her Jr career when figures were eliminated, so she had to train them early on. Luckily for her career (and for us fans!), Frank still had her work on them.)

Dee4707 · Nov 30, 2009

Regarding Witt

She is best known not only for her athletic abilities but also for her stunning good looks and sex appeal.

Interesting criteria.

janetfan · Nov 30, 2009

Dee4707 said:
Regarding Witt

Interesting criteria.

It worked for me as I rooted for Kat in 1984.

I did not in 1988 because I was sick of her by then :laugh:

Blades of Passion · Nov 30, 2009

Kwanford Wife said:
However, to have Chen Lu on this list instead is a bit of a head scratcher... Butterfly Lovers wasn't THAT great...

Chen Lu is one of the most artistic skaters ever!

Butterfly Lovers is amazing and of course she wouldn't deserve to be listed because of that alone, but she has many other masterpiece programs as well:

Nausicaa, The Last Emperor, Spring Breeze, Rachmaninov.

She deserved to be 3-time World Champion, IMO.

Kwanford Wife · Nov 30, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Chen Lu is one of the most artistic skaters ever!

Butterfly Lovers is amazing and of course she wouldn't deserve to be listed because of that alone, but she has many other masterpiece programs as well:

Nausicaa, The Last Emperor, Spring Breeze, Rachmaninov.

She deserved to be 3-time World Champion, IMO.

Seriously? Or are you just being contrary today??

Blades of Passion · Nov 30, 2009

Chen Lu deserved to win the 1993, 1995, and 1996 World Championships.

She also deserved higher placement at the 1992 and 1994 Olympics (Bronze and Silver, respectively).

Quite an undermarked skater most of the time.

When you look at the 80's to the present, she produced more masterpiece programs in her competitive career than every woman but Michelle Kwan. IMO.

Kwanford Wife · Nov 30, 2009

I need to back and check out Chen Lu's world championship performances because I don't remember it that way... granted, 1996 was La Kwan's breakout so I doubt I'll agree about '96 but you never know...

I doubt she'd ever make a Top 10 list but Debi Thomas will always have a place in my heart as one of the greats - as will Bonaly. Neither really lived up to their early promise, but both had tremendous style.

janetfan · Nov 30, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
But you recovered in time so that she could work her magic on you again in 1994, didn't you?

I never minded Kat in 1994. But whatever happened to the German Ladies? They used to have much better skaters and it seems since Kat they have dropped off the map.

My last thought of a German Lady was the one who crashed into Oksana in the warmups back in Lillehamer.

If Kat was behind that she should have realized she needed to knock out about 6 more skaters before she could win a 3rd OGM

(just kidding) :laugh:

MKFSfan · Nov 30, 2009

I agree with Kwanford Wife...just got done watching Lu Chen and Michelle skate and IMO, the judges got it right. It was close, very close, and I do believe Michelle deserved to win on both marks (both recieved 2 6.0's). I also think Michelle had the good fortune of skating after Lulu. Really, either could've won with their respective skates in most company, but I just felt Michelle was better that night. She did 7 triples to Lulu's 6, and more varied, harder spins.

Olympia · Nov 30, 2009

Yeah, I could watch both Yuka and Kwan just skate around all day. Carroll was such a meticulous teacher, and in Kwan he had a student who soaked up everything he had to offer. Between the two of them, and then the magical choreography of Lori Nichol, the result was something that happens once in a generation.

Chen Lu also had a wonderful symbiotic relationship with her choreographer--Sandra Bezic, wasn't it? Each brought out the best in the other.

One thing that put a stop to German skating supremacy was the end of the East German sport system. But things cycle around. Thanks to people like Ingo Steuer, they're already reviving.

An interesting sidelight into the collision between Baiul and Szewczenko. Kunstrijdster, you joked about how Witt could have benefited from their collision--but in all seriousness, there was a lovely moment in the outcome of the crash. The reporters and the photographic evidence all verify that one person was the first to help both girls up from the ice: Katarina Witt. I love that she did that.

Kwanford Wife · Nov 30, 2009

MKFSfan said:
I agree with Kwanford Wife...just got done watching Lu Chen and Michelle skate and IMO, the judges got it right. It was close, very close, and I do believe Michelle deserved to win on both marks (both recieved 2 6.0's). I also think Michelle had the good fortune of skating after Lulu. Really, either could've won with their respective skates in most company, but I just felt Michelle was better that night. She did 7 triples to Lulu's 6, and more varied, harder spins.

Plus Michelle had that gleem about her... Don't get me wrong, Kwan's level of sheer talent was always first rate. But its her star factor that made her stand out. Its also why she is always called an artist vs. an athlete...which is a bit of pet peeve of mine. She set a technical standard that everyone else, including Irina, had to match.

And I wouldn't be suprised if 10 years from now there will be a Yuna fan making the same arguement for her...Its that special quality that makes skating special.

janetfan · Nov 30, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
Szewsczenko was the last top Ladies skater we had. Sarah Hecken is quite promising for our standards. But it's not only Germany. In the 90s France had Bonaly, Gusmeroli and Hubert who were all great. And all of sudded nothing much came after them, although Candice is not too bad I should say. Is this a parallel to the US on a smaller scale?

It is possible, but I think in our case the Asian Ladies have raised the bar and we didn't catch up yet.

Last year at Worlds North America had Joannie 2nd and Rachael 5th.

Asia 1st, 3rd and 4th.

I guess Laura and Alena were the best Euro girls.

Looking at Jr Worlds the past few seasons USA Ladies have done well.
If our current young'uns don't become podium skaters we have another bunch of young girls who will become seniors in the next season or two.

Russia has a promising crop of young ladies but not so sure if the rest of Europe does.

The USA has not had a yearly dominance in skating. We have had dry periods before but now does feel worse than it might be because of the Asian girls.

I don't really know how our next generation of juniors will do, but I know we will have them, and more to follow them, etc.....

Blades of Passion · Nov 30, 2009

MKFSfan said:
I agree with Kwanford Wife...just got done watching Lu Chen and Michelle skate and IMO, the judges got it right. It was close, very close, and I do believe Michelle deserved to win on both marks (both recieved 2 6.0's). I also think Michelle had the good fortune of skating after Lulu. Really, either could've won with their respective skates in most company, but I just felt Michelle was better that night. She did 7 triples to Lulu's 6, and more varied, harder spins.

Michelle did an extra Triple Toe, but Lu Chen did an extra Double Axel. Lu Chen's second Triple Lutz was better quality, as was her other combination jump (3Flip-2Toe vs. Michelle's 3Toe-2Toe).

So really I'd say Lu Chen was a little better in jumps and Michelle was a little better spins, putting them even technically.

Artistically I would give Michelle a 5.9 and Lu Chen a 6.0. Chen's performance was perfect. You could see a tiny bit of nervousness in Michelle's face and shoulders.

They were both amazing, though, so it's harsh having to pick one (especially because I give Michelle the edge in the SP).

Ideally, I tie them. We should all be allowed to call one tie, I think. :biggrin:

If forced to do a Sophie's Choice I would say Lu Chen, though.

janetfan · Nov 30, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Michelle did an extra Triple Toe, but Lu Chen did an extra Double Axel. Lu Chen's second Triple Lutz was better quality, as was her other combination jump (3Flip-2Toe vs. Michelle's 3Toe-2Toe).

So really I'd say Lu Chen was a little better in jumps and Michelle was a little better spins, putting them even technically.

Artistically I would give Michelle a 5.9 and Lu Chen a 6.0. Chen's performance was perfect. You could see a tiny bit of nervousness in Michelle's face and shoulders.

They were both amazing, though, so it's harsh having to pick one (especially because I give Michelle the edge in the SP).

Ideally, I tie them. We should all be allowed to call one tie, I think.

If forced to do a Sophie's Choice I would say Lu Chen, though.

That is a good take on that competition. I think it had to be a tough call by the judges. I love both girls and sometimes it seems unfair that one has to come in second.

But Sohie's Choice?

I should have mentioned that great novel on the "Greatest Men's topic

Layfan · Nov 30, 2009

My reason before to include Irina was not because I believed she was really an innovator but because of her many titles and major medals. Midori does not come close to matching Irina's medals and titles.

I'm definitely glad Irina made the list. The reason she has so many titles and major medals is because of her longevity in a sport where that is so rare. And not just longevity, but longevity at the top of her game.

She was a world bronze medalist in 1996 - Nearly a DECADE before she won her second world title and exactly a decade before she won her second Olympic medal. She was in three Olympics.

Are there any skaters of the '00 decade who are more decorated than Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya?

evangeline · Dec 1, 2009

Layfan said:
Are there any skaters of the '00 decade who are more decorated than Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya?

Nope.

I always found it ironic that the two most decorated lady skaters of the 2000 decade were both bereft of an Olympic gold (yet they both had Olympic bronze and silver).

Blades of Passion · Dec 1, 2009

Ah, Medals...if only they were given out fairly. Midori was blatantly robbed most of her career.

Someone says they really respect Slutskaya for her longevity, but Midori had that as well.

Looking at the big competitions throughout her career, I would have had her as (don't agree if you don't want to, but at least respect how amazing she was in her SPs and LPs):

1984 Worlds - 3rd place

1985 Worlds - (she was injured and did not attend but her performance at Skate Canada earlier in the season was better than what anyone else did the whole year)

1986 Worlds - 1st place / (I actually underestimated her at this competition before...on review of the performances she is probably the best, though)

1987 Worlds - 2nd place

1988 Olympics - 1st place / (she was so far ahead of everyone else here that they look like kids on a playground in comparison. Midori should have received 6.0 across the board in both the SP and LP for technical merit)

1988 Worlds - 1st place

1989 Worlds - 1st place

1990 Worlds - 1st place

1991 Worlds - 6th place / (she again dominated the Grand Prix this year but then was bulldozed by Hubert in the warm-up, sustaining serious injury)

1992 Olympics - 2nd place / (and the favorite after the Grand Prix yet again)

That's an amazing career.

Top 10 Ladies in Skating History?

prettykeys

Kwanford Wife

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

MKFSfan

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

janetfan

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Kwanford Wife

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Kwanford Wife

janetfan

Match Penalty

MKFSfan

Olympia

Kwanford Wife

janetfan

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

janetfan

Match Penalty

Layfan

evangeline

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

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