Top 10 Ladies in Skating History?

I like Midori...I wish that was her record!!!

As for 1996 Worlds...I didn't become a diehard MK fan until after the 1998 Olympics. I was much like I am now, just enjoying whoever can lay it out there and have a fantastic competition. I was rooting for Michelle, but I also wanted Lulu the chance to repeat, especially after the way her Fall events went and being beaten by Michelle and Irina at the Final. I remember watching the LP and after Lulu skated thinking,"Unless Michelle does her 3/3 and 2 2axles, Lulu has won!" But then Michelle skated and I was all,"Did she...OMG, I think she...!!!" She was amazing and being the last skater, I think she had a bit of an advantage. 1st the obvious-the judges left room, but also because she had to know Lulu went clean and she had to be perfect (same scenario as the '98 Oly IMO). I went back and rewatched both last night and my opinion that it was SO close changed a bit. Yes, Lulu had the maturity and calm about her a seasoned vet has. But Lori and Frank created something magical. "Salome" was EXACTLY what a 15 year old Michelle needed to beat the reigning World Champ that night. That program was more filling I felt, and while Michelle had some nerves to shake off in the beginning, she really sold that program. She had so much command and presence even as a 15 year old. I felt at the beginning of the season she was this tomboy playing dress up in mommy's clothes, but she grew more and more as an artist as the season went on. She didn't have the same maturity and grace as Lulu at that point, nor the great lutz, but she had so much going for her and was rewarded for it.

It could've gone either way, but I feel 6 out of 9 judges got it right that night.

I'm going to go out on a limb here. but I think Tara Lipinski should be mentioned in this list. She was the youngest Olympic, World and US Champion. And I believe she won every title to be had in the skating world. I believe she should be above Lu Chen

chrissy51 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here. but I think Tara Lipinski should be mentioned in this list. She was the youngest Olympic, World and US Champion. And I believe she won every title to be had in the skating world. I believe she should be above Lu Chen

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I think a 'greatest' list should take into account (in rough descending order).

1. Influence on other skaters
2. Innovations
3. Titles
4. Career length (amateur and pro combined when necessary)

Youngest by itself doesn't cut it for me. No offense against Lipinski who was a great competitor in her day, but her only innovation was the 3l-3l and she had no real lasting influence and her total skating career wasn't very long (and her title haul was impressive but over a relatively short period of time). I don't think I'd have Lu Chen on the list either (and maybe not Hamill) but a greatest ever without Lynn, Sayers and Colledge just doesn't cut it.

To me, the most important criterion is body of work. That is why I would still put Michelle Kwan at number one. Just read through the list of her programs from 1996 to 2004. Without peer or rival, IMHO.

Mathman said:

Just read through the list of her programs from 1996 to 2004. Without peer or rival, IMHO.

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Don't forget 2005.

We can ignore Bolero, but her Spartacus SP at Nationals was a masterpiece.

And, yes, that is why she is my #1. Nobody else has shown as much versatility and artistry over the length of their competitive career as Michelle has.

chrissy51 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here. but I think Tara Lipinski should be mentioned in this list. She was the youngest Olympic, World and US Champion. And I believe she won every title to be had in the skating world. I believe she should be above Lu Chen

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Despite her record, which is impressive, Tara wasn't around long enough to have a lasting impact. I wouldn't include her for the same reason I wouldn't include Oksana...

Mathman said:

To me, the most important criterion is body of work. That is why I would still put Michelle Kwan at number one. Just read through the list of her programs from 1996 to 2004. Without peer or rival, IMHO.

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Blades of Passion said:

Don't forget 2005.

We can ignore Bolero, but her Spartacus SP at Nationals was a masterpiece.

And, yes, that is why she is my #1. Nobody else has shown as much versatility and artistry over the length of their competitive career as Michelle has.

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I'd go on and on about how awesome and awe-inspiring La Kwan is but RD gets mad at me when I do that - so I'll just sum it up with...

ALL HAIL THE KWEEN! KEEPER OF THE LIGHT

ugh, yuck, gag me... KW please!

Kwanford Wife said:

Despite her record, which is impressive, Tara wasn't around long enough to have a lasting impact. I wouldn't include her for the same reason I wouldn't include Oksana...








I'd go on and on about how awesome and awe-inspiring La Kwan is but RD gets mad at me when I do that - so I'll just sum it up with...

ALL HAIL THE KWEEN! KEEPER OF THE LIGHT

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I agree with you 100%!

Michelle Kwan should be number one on that list for soo many reasons. Her longevity, her amazing artistry, wonderful consistency and herself for being the person she is, a perfect example of how an athlete should be, she amazed me with her mindset that you should be gracious in defeat as you are in victory. How she handled Nagano, SLC, and Torino stand out the most in my mind, she gets knocked down but gets up

I think Lu Chen has a well deserved place on this list, she had pretty good longevity as well, beautiful jumps and artistry and her performance at Alberta and at Nagano still take my breath away

Tonichelle said:

ugh, yuck, gag me... KW please!

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*goes to fetch the gag*



Ant

I wonder about the 1996 Worlds where 15 year old Michelle was placed first over defending champion Chen-Lu.

Then I think about Nagano and Tara being placed first over Michelle.

I disagree with both of those results and would have given Chen-Lu a slight edge over Michelle in 1996 because I prefered her more mature artistry.

I felt the same about Nagano '98 and would have placed Michelle first.

Do Kwan fans want it both ways?

Did Michelle's extra triple offset the beauty of Chen-Lu's skating in '96?
And perhaps Chen-lu's 3L was a bit better ?

In Nagano did Tara's 3x1x3 offset Michelle's beautiful and more mature skating artistry? Could the judges have considered which skater had a more proper 3L?

It seems to me that if Michelle won in '96 then she also lost in '98.
But I am sure every Kwan fan would gladly reverse the outcomes of '96 and '98.

I typically do not prefer 14-15 year olds over older skaters because of the artistry factor.

Looking at Mao and Yuna's '06 Jr World performances there is no way I could have placed either of them over Shizuka's performance in Torino.

The only exception for me was 15 year old Oksana. Her artistry and stylish skating was good enough to be placed first and I don't think I have ever seen a girl with better dance qualities to her skating than Oksana, with a range from balletic to Broadway and more.
I also admired the way her skating flowed with the music better than the others in '03 and '04 (and most other years too).

Well, Kwan wasn't stronger in technical merit than Lu Chen in the 1996 performances.

Tara was technically stronger than Kwan in the 1998 performances, though.

I certainly would have given Michelle the win in 1998 if Tara had been weaker artistically...but I find that performance from Tara to be one of the most joyous and uplifting I've ever seen.

Honestly - Tara's program was choreographed better than Michelle's.

Michelle had 8 jumping passes, none of which had particularly short set-ups (or any transitional movements directly beforehand). The elements are beautifully placed but there isn't a ton of actual choreography in her Lyra Angelica program.

Tara's program had 6 jumping passes, allowing her to find room for a footwork sequence (which Michelle didn't have) and a moment in the middle of the program where she can skate to the music without prepping for an upcoming jump or spin.

Michelle may have had the stronger skating skills (by far) and music that was more difficult to interpret, but I think Tara's performance quality was stronger. On that night Tara skated with more energy. Michelle did not end her program at the Olympics with the same inspiration as she did at Nationals.

Blades of Passion said:

Well, Kwan wasn't stronger in technical merit than Lu Chen in the 1996 performances.

Tara was technically stronger than Kwan in the 1998 performances, though.

I certainly would have given Michelle the win in 1998 if Tara had been weaker artistically...but I find that performance from Tara to be one of the most joyous and uplifting I've ever seen.

Honestly - Tara's program was choreographed better than Michelle's.

Michelle had 8 jumping passes, none of which had particularly short set-ups (or any transitional movements directly beforehand). The elements are beautifully placed but there isn't a ton of actual choreography in her Lyra Angelica program.

Tara's program had 6 jumping passes, allowing her to find room for a footwork sequence (which Michelle didn't have) and a moment in the middle of the program where she can skate to the music without prepping for an upcoming jump or spin.

Michelle may have had the stronger skating skills (by far) and music that was more difficult to interpret, but I think Tara's performance quality was stronger. On that night Tara skated with more energy. Michelle did not end her program at the Olympics with the same inspiration as she did at Nationals.

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Thanks for that analysis BOP.
What about '96? Who would you have placed first - Michelle or Lulu?

Regarding energy I am reminded of the most energetic and enthusiastic skater of them all - Scott Hamilton. :yes:

Unfortunately Scott did not have as much of it in his '84 LP in Sarajevo.

But does energy trump calmer and more elegant skating?

janetfan said:

Thanks for that analysis BOP.
What about '96? Who would you have placed first - Michelle or Lulu?

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Lulu in the LP, but I do wish they could have tied at that competition since Michelle was a bit better in the SP.

If Michelle had done the Triple-Triple that was planned then she would have deserved to win the LP.

janetfan said:

But does energy trump calmer and more elegant skating?

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Elegance can still have energy. The speed of the skating, the crispness of the moves, the exact expression on the skater's face...

It should be noted that elegant does not necessarily mean "better", though. There are many different kinds of styles and it's possible to be elegant without being the most engaging. I personally think Tara had the stronger program; it was more dynamic.

If Tara had Michelle's skating skills, I don't think anybody would be denying the brilliance of her choreography and the amount of inspiration she put into her performance.

Blades of Passion said:

It should be noted that elegant does not necessarily mean "better", though. There are many different kinds of styles and it's possible to be elegant without being the most engaging. I personally think Tara had the stronger program; it was more dynamic.

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ITA.

I love Michelle (and it's paining me to admit this) but Tara skated her LP lights-out that night. Maybe Michelle should've won if she skated in Nagano like she did at Nationals that year, but...well, she didn't.

janetfan said:

Do Kwan fans want it both ways?

It seems to me that if Michelle won in '96 then she also lost in '98.

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Nah, Michelle won in 1996 and she lost in 1998. Differert programs, different situations, different judges. Sometimes the more mature and artistic performance wins, sometimes the more athletic and energetic.

In my opinion the whole idea of "should have won" is bogus in a judged sport. At Nagano a panel of nine experienced and unbiased expert judges split 6 for one skater, 3 for another. To me, that shows that the concept of an "objectively" superior performance goes out the window.

But I am sure every Kwan fan would gladly reverse the outcomes of '96 and '98.

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I wouldn't. It is what it is. Michelle won what she won and she didn't win what she didn't win.

evangeline said:

Maybe Michelle should've won if she skated in Nagano like she did at Nationals that year, but...well, she didn't.

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Even Frank Caroll said that Michelle skated too cautiously at Nagano. Perhaps he said this to ward off any idea in Michelle's head that she was robbed. He had witnessed how such negative thoughts had turned Linda Fratianne bitter -- a bitterness that has follwed her all of her life.

However, if you watch both of Michelle's performances of Lyra Angelica -- Nationals and the Olympics -- with the sound off, it is really hard to tell the difference. I think the perception that she tore the roof off the joint at nationals and was not quite at the same level at Nagano had more to do with the crowd reaction than with the actual skating.

I had no idea where to post this, i hope it is ok here.
For those who have web tv, from now the russian channel NTV Plus Sport Classic (НТВ-ПЛЮС Спорт Классика) will air some footage of old competitions.
For this saturday 5 December

Program ´Back in the USSR´ 1976 Olympic Games - Ladies Competition

21:10-22:40 Central European
3:10-4:40pm - USA Eastern

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I won't rehash why I think Michelle deserved to win 1996 Worlds and why I think she could've won 1998 Olympics...what's done is done, and I think both competitions and results played huge parts in who Michelle ended up being.

To get back on topic...when I think of who I believe has been influential during the years I've been a fan (since the early1990's), I think of Michelle, Irina, Lulu, Midori and in it's own way, like someone mentioned earlier, the Tonya/Nancy incident. I wouldn't call Tara influential-she does have her name in the records books for all time and she accomplish great things, but other than proving you need a 3/3 to beat a clean Michelle, I don't really think she handed anything down to future generations. Had she stayed around another four years, we might be discussing a very different situation, but I think she began to develop as an artist during her SOI years. It's a shame-it would've been quite amazing to have Michelle and Tara pushing each other both technically and artistically another quad/Olympics.

The difference I believe between Tara's OGM and Michelle's career is Tara came and did what she did, won her titles, then left. Michelle left her legacy for future generations to build upon. I don't need to go on and on about what Michelle has done for figure skating, but she certainly left her mark. She deserves the honor of being mentioned on all these Greatest lists as she has been. And she will be remembered a 100 years from now.

I believe one day Yu-Na may very well be added to this list, and hopefully Mao if she can get past recent troubles. If Yu-Na medals at the 2010 Olympics and retires, I think she will join the same discussions as Tara when "Who are the Greatest Skaters?" are considered, but I think she should leap frog ahead of Tara. What Yu-Na has accomplished these past few seasons, especially for South Korea, is remarkable. She could be the Midori or Lu Chen of her country, inspiring and paving the way for others. But I really hope the best is yet to come for Yu-Na and she will end up a Legend like her idol, Michelle, has.

Mathman said:

Nah, Michelle won in 1996 and she lost in 1998. Differert programs, different situations, different judges. Sometimes the more mature and artistic performance wins, sometimes the more athletic and energetic.

In my opinion the whole idea of "should have won" is bogus in a judged sport. At Nagano a panel of nine experienced and unbiased expert judges split 6 for one skater, 3 for another. To me, that shows that the concept of an "objectively" superior performance goes out the window.

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I agree with all of this.

Sometimes there's a huge gap in quality and/or difficulty between the best performance and the next best, in which case it's pretty clear who deserves to win. But when it comes down to balancing one skater's strengths and weaknesses against the different strengths and weaknesses of a different skater, then subjectivity will always come into play.

However, if you watch both of Michelle's performances of Lyra Angelica -- Nationals and the Olympics -- with the sound off, it is really hard to tell the difference. I think the perception that she tore the roof off the joint at nationals and was not quite at the same level at Nagano had more to do with the crowd reaction than with the actual skating.

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In theory, it's possible that Kwan's performances were exactly the same on the two occasions and it was the differences in the quality of Lipinski's respective performances that accounted for the difference in results. (Also the difference in the short program placements.)

But it's also possible that the differences in Kwan's performances were of a sort that is not best perceived on video.

Or, as you say, the differences could be more in the perceptions of the respective audiences and judging panels than in what actually happened on the ice.

MKFSfan said:

I believe one day Yu-Na may very well be added to this list, and hopefully Mao if she can get past recent troubles.

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Which raises the question (forgive me if this has already been discussed in the middle of the thread) -- what's the point in limiting the top ladies in skating history to only 10. If Yu-Na gets added to the list, does someone else have to drop off?

As the sport gets older and broader, it has more history and more influential practitioners over the course of that history. The list should just get longer.

Can we have a "top 10" list with 13 members one year, and a few years later it has 20?

It might make more sense to ask "Who are the most influential skaters (in each discipline) in the history of the sport?" Or "Which skaters (in the history of the discipline) could be considered all-time greats?"

Establish some criteria for answering each of those questions, and then decide which skaters meet the criteria and belong on the list. Don't decide in advance how long the list should be, and expect it to get longer as the sport progresses.

I think we'd get two different lists for those two different questions. E.g., Cecelia Colledge or Denise Biellmann or Elaine Zayak probably deserve to be listed among the most influential but probably not as all-time great competitors.

It might be interesting to make a short list of the skaters who qualify for both.

Tonichelle said:

ugh, yuck, gag me... KW please!

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Where is the love, Toni? Where is the love?

Mathman said:

However, if you watch both of Michelle's performances of Lyra Angelica -- Nationals and the Olympics -- with the sound off, it is really hard to tell the difference. I think the perception that she tore the roof off the joint at nationals and was not quite at the same level at Nagano had more to do with the crowd reaction than with the actual skating.

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I see three notable differences:

1) - The Triple Flip. She had the small bobble on it at Olympics

2) - Her expression after landing the final jump of the program. At Nationals, she flung her shoulders outward after the jump and had an orgasmic smile on her face. At Olympics, she just held the landing and looked satisfied.

3) - The ending. At Nationals she threw her arms up in the air perfectly in unison with the music. At Olympics, she was slightly behind the music and her final pose came off as an afterthought.