Skating Too Tough To Create Stars?

Definitely runners, soccer players, and other athletes are beautiful in action. (And I deeply hope that Usain Bolt won his medals entirely under his own steam!)

You bring up an interesting side point. It's often occurred to me that skating is one of the few sports where performance-enhancing drugs don't really have any function. After all, ladies can't benefit from growing bigger, men certainly don't need to become muscle-bound, and superhuman speed isn't needed anywhere but in a scratch spin. Infractions in skating tend to be committed by judges, not competitors. So you could argue that skating is a "purer" sport than many others!

In any case, I'm relieved that its popularity and profitability are still enough to keep it in the Olympics. In terms of national politics, the fact that China is now a skating power is going to be a huge benefit for the sport's longevity. Add to that Japan and Korea, and we're pretty well set for a good while to come.

In any case, we do have skating stars right now. I gather that YuNa Kim is now the most popular person in all of South Korea. And she's certainly a star in Canada, her training home, and very well known and much admired by skating fans everywhere else.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but when Comrade Cinquanta threatens that figure skating could be removed from the olympics, what he's actually saying is that the ISU could be removed from the olympics.

There's no way that the winter olympics would remove its biggest money maker and most photogenic and publicity friendly sport. They (like a lot of us) might well wonder what they need the ISU for....

Mathman said:

^ I agree completely with Bigsisjiejie (post 16). Historically, figure skating has been the big television draw of the Winter Olympics.
There are two things that could change this. One is that figure skating might lose its special appeal by becoming "more like other sports."
The other is that the Winter Olympics themselves may drift away into irrelevance. Then it won't matter what's a real sport and what isn't.

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I've hardly seen more than bits and pieces of any olympics in recent years. In the winter olympics (which I generally prefer) in 2002 and 2006 I only watched figure skating and curling (which totally rocks!).

At present I have no plans to watch skating in 2010.. That is, I might watch selected programs on youtube after the fact but I have no real interest in watching most of the competitions as they happen. I might follow the competitions in the event threads if I'm awake and at the computer at the same time as the competitions but no guarantee.

The one exception is pairs, where I would watch the LP if S/Z have a real shot at gold after the SP.

But CoP's weird hierarchy of values (underrotation as the very worst thing a skater can do, the consistent promotion of poorly executed 'difficulty' over quality and the obtuse nonsensical way PC scores seem to be assigned) mean I mostly don't care about singles anymore.

I thought I might get into dance but there I only like CDs and ODs, I'm really not interested in most FDs

I do have high hopes for curling though.

Hello? We have stars who are household names such as Yuna, Mao, Miki, and Daisuke. I thought that Yuna was the biggest star in Korea. Mao is the CM queen. Even Morozov is a household name in Japan.

BTW, I was watching Jenny Kirk's skating last week on Youtube and felt that she looked like an ice princess. She was really beautiful, with artistry, great jumps, gorgeous costumes, and makeup. It's kind of out of imagination what she has described was happening behinde the stage or in her mind. Her blog gives me a different impression, a lot more down to earth. I like both sides.

bigsisjiejie said:

Figure skating as a whole isn't in any danger of being tossed out of the Olympics. It's one of the bigger moneymakers among all the Winter Games sports, and one of the few Winter sports that consistently attracts considerable female audiences both live ticket sales, and especially television. The IOC isn't completely stupid. The main issue that has threatened ice dance before is a perception that it is completely rigged and corrupt, in favor of the Europeans and especially the Russians (which is historically true). But those same countries' Federations are powerful both in the ISU and the IOC, so I think ice dance is pretty safe whether you consider it a sport or not. And whether you consider it rigged and corrupt or not. Fortunately, last time I checked, neither one of these sports bodies is consulting with Phil Hersh.

(PS My guess is that with the rise of V/M and their success with intl judges, the Canadian IOC member who proposed elimination of ice dance is probably laying low right about now.)

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Th ISU has been losing money like crazy since 2002.We have all complained on the lack of TV coverage of figure skating. That this is the Olympic year is the only reason we are seeing more skating on television, but that may drop considerably next season. The loss of lucrative TV contracts has forced them to reduce their costs across the board and if another "judging" scandal or other issue related to figure skating rears its ugly head in Vancouver, the IOC will take another look because the IOC has far more interests than figure skating to support to keep its status as the biggest sporting event in the world. Hockey makes more $$$ than figure skating and speed skating has been moving up in visibility and interest outside Europe, where it is much bigger than figure skating. Sometimes one has to look at the broader picture.

KKonas said:

Th ISU has been losing money like crazy since 2002.We have all complained on the lack of TV coverage of figure skating. That this is the Olympic year is the only reason we are seeing more skating on television, but that may drop considerably next season. The loss of lucrative TV contracts has forced them to reduce their costs across the board and if another "judging" scandal or other issue related to figure skating rears its ugly head in Vancouver, the IOC will take another look because the IOC has far more interests than figure skating to support to keep its status as the biggest sporting event in the world. Hockey makes more $$$ than figure skating and speed skating has been moving up in visibility and interest outside Europe, where it is much bigger than figure skating. Sometimes one has to look at the broader picture.

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Then in this case, the solution is for the IOC to dump the ISU as the sponsoring body of figure skating, and come up with a completely new body to govern the sport (Cinquanta not invited). Surely this is a better solution than dumping figure skating entirely?

As for which sport is making money vs the others, you got any links or references for us?

KKonas said:

Th ISU has been losing money like crazy since 2002.We have all complained on the lack of TV coverage of figure skating. That this is the Olympic year is the only reason we are seeing more skating on television, but that may drop considerably next season. The loss of lucrative TV contracts has forced them to reduce their costs across the board and if another "judging" scandal or other issue related to figure skating rears its ugly head in Vancouver, the IOC will take another look because the IOC has far more interests than figure skating to support to keep its status as the biggest sporting event in the world. Hockey makes more $$$ than figure skating and speed skating has been moving up in visibility and interest outside Europe, where it is much bigger than figure skating. Sometimes one has to look at the broader picture.

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But why have they lost the lucrative TV deals? Because $peedy tried to play hardball and force the TV companies to pay ludicrous prices for the contracts and the TV companies told him where to shove his contracts. Our loss, skating's loss, but no loss to the TV companies who can fill their schedule with other sports for the same money.

Seems like more reason to get rid of the ISU if they've managed to negotiate themselves out of any revenue from TV contracts.

Ant

gsrossano said:

This is kind of amusing. Speedy says skating is now too difficult to create the stars the sport needs!

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Don't tell me he is just now coming to this conclusion. DUH! Of course the longevity of success of its athletes is going to decrease as the physical demands of the sport increases. Numerous quads and triple+triple combinations don't promote longevity of stars.

Speedy is an idiot!!! Skating has gotten sloppy, not harder.

Mafke said:

At present I have no plans to watch skating in 2010.. That is, I might watch selected programs on youtube after the fact but I have no real interest in watching most of the competitions as they happen. I might follow the competitions in the event threads if I'm awake and at the computer at the same time as the competitions but no guarantee.

The one exception is pairs, where I would watch the LP if S/Z have a real shot at gold after the SP.

But CoP's weird hierarchy of values (underrotation as the very worst thing a skater can do, the consistent promotion of poorly executed 'difficulty' over quality and the obtuse nonsensical way PC scores seem to be assigned) mean I mostly don't care about singles anymore.

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Couldn't agree more!!!

Bennett said:

Hello? We have stars who are household names such as Yuna, Mao, Miki, and Daisuke. I thought that Yuna was the biggest star in Korea. Mao is the CM queen. Even Morozov is a household name in Japan.

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This may or maynot be true outside of skating circles and the fan world. I don't live in Japan, so I can't speculate on the interest level outside of the US, but we definately don't have household names here... we don't even have random names. I watched Emily Hughes skate around in a circle on the Macy's Parade and all I thought was "WOW... skating really is dying to put a noncontender on a major float in an olympic year for the television sponsor..."

antmanb said:

But why have they lost the lucrative TV deals? Because $peedy tried to play hardball and force the TV companies to pay ludicrous prices for the contracts and the TV companies told him where to shove his contracts. Our loss, skating's loss, but no loss to the TV companies who can fill their schedule with other sports for the same money.

Seems like more reason to get rid of the ISU if they've managed to negotiate themselves out of any revenue from TV contracts.

Ant

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EXACTLY!!! It drives me crazy when people don't understand that skating's biggest problem is the guy in charge. He should go work on Wall Street... the moron.

The sports you like depend on what you want to see the human body do. Like Imaginary Pogue, I love watching Usain Bolt- his start, his stride, when shifts into that other gear, etc. I also love watching quarterbacks throw and receivers catch. Running backs running routes and evading the defender. The beauty of these things does not always have to do with the score or who wins.

I think the problem with skating, as with all artistic sports, is that there has to be some way to determine who wins, to make the artistic quantifiable, and satisfy everyone that it is all being done fairly. The stars of this sport will be those who can perform beautifully at a consistently high technical level, just like always. And if you look at the international podiums of the last few years, you do tend to see the same names over and over. That would suggest to me that those people have become the stars of this sport. What is being questioned in this article is why aren't these people household names? That is an entirely different question than is skating too tough to create stars. Maybe the ISU needs to promote the sport better.

Wicked said:

That would suggest to me that those people have become the stars of this sport. What is being questioned in this article is why aren't these people household names? That is an entirely different question than is skating too tough to create stars. Maybe the ISU needs to promote the sport better.

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Isn't it just that they are not from America or Europe where the article and many posters to this thread seem to be coming from? Michelle Kwan was not a household name in Japan, either. There, the only household names from foreign countries would be perhaps Witt for the legendary sexy Carmel and Janet Lynn for becoming the star at the Sapporo Olympics in Japan. Some people would remember Tonya Harding.

Kwanford Wife said:

Speedy is an idiot!!! Skating has gotten sloppy, not harder.

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Maybe it's gotten sloppy because it's gotten harder?

I definitely think the average level of technical difficulty continues to increase. Moves that only exceptional skaters could attempt 10-20 years ago are now commonplace. Or, in some cases (e.g., women's triple axels), still exceptions.

Kwanford Wife said:

I watched Emily Hughes skate around in a circle on the Macy's Parade and all I thought was "WOW... skating really is dying to put a noncontender on a major float in an olympic year for the television sponsor..."

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I don't understand this complaint.

Who is responsible for "putting" this skater on this float, and how does doing so reflect the fact that skating is dying?

If skating were healthier, would you expect a recent or potential world medalist on a major float? Or not to bother with putting a skater on a float at all?

Has there ever been a more successful skater actually skating on a float in this kind of parade? (I remember the whole Kerrigan at Disney World fiasco, but I thought she was just riding on the float, not skating)

It's a big wide world out there.

As Bennet mentioned, there are Figure Skating Stars who are household names such as YuNa, Mao, Miki, Daisuke as well as Joubert, Plushenko, Lambiel, and a few others.

Internationally, they are huge stars

I agree with every denigrating remark about Speedy. There can't be too many, IMO. I was there when the crowd booed him in Vancouver....Deeply satisfying...And whoever the camera man was who recently caught him picking his nose in the stands has won a warm place in my heart.

As far as the ISU pricing itself out of the market is concerned, I think that's only part of the problem. The coverage itself has taken a weird turn. Does the idea of trying to create 'stars' come from the ISU , the individual federations, or the TV networks ? I think they're all guilty, to some degree. Exceptional athletes will become stars based on their merits.

There's far too much behind the scenes and fluff coverage and not enough skating in much of what makes it to TV. Remember when we had to watch Sasha shopping in new York ?.. Or, if you've ever watched Canadian coverage, you'll never want to hear the phrase " The Next One" again. One of the most egregious examples on Canadian TV was when L/H won the national title. Everyone had already crowned D/D in their minds and there were many bits and blurbs aired about them ,and nothing on the eventual winners. It was gross. I believe that even after L/H won ,they rushed to interview D/D about losing...and never interviewed the winners.

It can't attract viewers ,or encourage people to recognize skating as a sport when you tune in for an hour of skating and get endless commercials, fluff pieces, and same old, same old cautious commentary and a grand total of four skaters (if you're lucky).

Back in the day when I used to watch seated on my dinosaur, , we saw more skating in a given time slot and still got filled in on skaters' backgrounds ,etc. by the commentators - during warm-ups, while waiting for marks, etc. We even got to hear of the ice dance soup-in-the-face scandal..and never missed any actual skating. You know, the usual way you get your colour in sports.

The sponsors could be a bit smarter, too. I'd be more likely to give them my business if I didn't have to see the same commercial over and over and over till I could scream. If they said "I bought this time, but I'm only going to run my commercial , say , 6 times instead of 20 ,so you can see another skater, they'd definitely be on my good guys list.

gkelly said:

Maybe it's gotten sloppy because it's gotten harder?

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Yes. For me, this is a poison pill in the planning of CoP. There was no reason to assign levels for spins and footwork from the very beginning (GOEs should be enough) and the apparently conscious and deliberate decision to make sure that bad spins at a higher level get more points than perfect spins at a lower level means that skaters will go for higher levels, no matter how ugly or sloppy.

Sometimes I think CoP was designed in a vacuum by people that don't understand that human beings respond to incentives. Reward fast centered spins with good positions and that's what you'll get (or at least skaters trying to do that). Reward sloppy ugly spins and you'll get that.

Mafke said:

Yes. For me, this is a poison pill in the planning of CoP. There was no reason to assign levels for spins and footwork from the very beginning (GOEs should be enough) and the apparently conscious and deliberate decision to make sure that bad spins at a higher level get more points than perfect spins at a lower level means that skaters will go for higher levels, no matter how ugly or sloppy.

Sometimes I think CoP was designed in a vacuum by people that don't understand that human beings respond to incentives. Reward fast centered spins with good positions and that's what you'll get (or at least skaters trying to do that). Reward sloppy ugly spins and you'll get that.

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:agree: :agree: :yes:

DragonPhoenix said:

It's a big wide world out there.

As Bennet mentioned, there are Figure Skating Stars who are household names such as YuNa, Mao, Miki, Daisuke as well as Joubert, Plushenko, Lambiel, and a few others.

Internationally, they are huge stars

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Other than Japan where skating is extensively covered by the major media outlets, are these skaters really household names? I question that. I suspect most people in most countries could not name their own national champion and could not name the current world champions. When I go to ISU events, the major media outlets (other than the host boradcaster) are mainly Japanese. Given the number of national media outlets in the U.S. and Canada, those that occassional cover skating are a handful.

The current stars are only household names in the homes of rabid skating fans. And that is the problem.

gsrossano said:

Given the number of national media outlets in the U.S. and Canada, those that occasional cover skating are a handful.

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Perhaps a little off topic, but one of the newspapers that does a fine job of covering figure skating in the sports pages is the Detroit Free Press (Jo-ann Barnas.) Back in the day, every story on skating would feature a big picture of Michelle Kwan, or some other big name. (Well, mostly Michelle. )

Their tack now is to feature skaters of local interest, even if they are not necessarily top contenders for world medals. Local ice dancers (not just Davis and White, but teams like Hubbell and Hubbell, Chock and Zuerline and Shibutani and Shibutani) have gotten ink during the Grand Prix

gkelly said:

I don't understand this complaint.

Who is responsible for "putting" this skater on this float, and how does doing so reflect the fact that skating is dying?

If skating were healthier, would you expect a recent or potential world medalist on a major float? Or not to bother with putting a skater on a float at all?

Has there ever been a more successful skater actually skating on a float in this kind of parade? (I remember the whole Kerrigan at Disney World fiasco, but I thought she was just riding on the float, not skating)

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This is a valid point... And no, I cannot say if another skater has ridden on a Macy's float...my point centered on the idea that instead of asking the current US champ or even the current us & world champ to ride on the float, Emily Hughes was invited because of her name recognition from 2006 Olympics.

As to who assigns float riders - this is typically done by the New York Parade Company whose responsiblity is to match sponsored floats with celebrities, athletes, etc. And no, Nancy didn't skate - she just wore her olympic warm-ups.

Mafke said:

Yes. For me, this is a poison pill in the planning of CoP. There was no reason to assign levels for spins and footwork from the very beginning (GOEs should be enough) and the apparently conscious and deliberate decision to make sure that bad spins at a higher level get more points than perfect spins at a lower level means that skaters will go for higher levels, no matter how ugly or sloppy.

Sometimes I think CoP was designed in a vacuum by people that don't understand that human beings respond to incentives. Reward fast centered spins with good positions and that's what you'll get (or at least skaters trying to do that). Reward sloppy ugly spins and you'll get that.

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Thank you for expressing what I was thinking but could not articulate.

It seems that had the new judging system been properly designed and points assigned, the technical aspects would've evolved from the proper source - the skaters themselves - instead of this artifical system.

gsrossano said:

Other than Japan where skating is extensively covered by the major media outlets, are these skaters really household names? I question that. I suspect most people in most countries could not name their own national champion and could not name the current world champions. When I go to ISU events, the major media outlets (other than the host boradcaster) are mainly Japanese. Given the number of national media outlets in the U.S. and Canada, those that occassional cover skating are a handful.

The current stars are only household names in the homes of rabid skating fans. And that is the problem.

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Exactly! How is this a good thing for an international sport? Regardless of the country? I'm sure Japanese fans worry about the dying popularity of skating...or at least I assume they do...

Kwanford Wife said:

This is a valid point... And no, I cannot say if another skater has ridden on a Macy's float...my point centered on the idea that instead of asking the current US champ or even the current us & world champ to ride on the float, Emily Hughes was invited because of her name recognition from 2006 Olympics.

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Or maybe because the Hughes family is from Long Island. New York parade, New York skater ???