Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP | Page 22 | Golden Skate

Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, I'm honestly surprised about this thread. I was sure to see more angry talk, but for some strange reason people here were more angry to Yuna when she scored high and now they are kind to her when she finished second.

I'm not too sure I see that so much as I see a horde of Yuna uberfans showing up to protest her DG. I mean come on guys, 65 points for a pop AND a DG is still INSANELY high. :scratch:
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
But what seems to be a near-consensus is that the UR call on the 3T was plain bad. I don't have any reason to believe it was motivated by dishonesty. Actually so far, this event has been relatively well-judged.

OK, I was joking when I wrote the comment about me being painted as an anti-YuNatic. Next time, I will use a more obvious emoticon when I'm being facetious (alas, the green disappointed one is my favourite).

Anyways, I agree with you--the UR call on Yu-Na's 3T is definitely questionable. I actually agree with people like you and Blades of Passion who were giving reasonable, measured and fairly objective reasons for why Yu-Na's 3T should not be downgraded. What I was objecting to, however, were previous posters like the one who automatically assumed that Yu-Na was the recipient of unfair tech calls because the the tech caller was Japanese (despite the fact that today's tech caller was Swiss, IIRC).

As for my apparent tendency to distortedly summarize other people's opinions...well, I'll leave that for another thread, this one is getting too cluttered.
 

DarkestMoon

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
OK, I was joking when I wrote the comment about me being painted as an anti-YuNatic. Next time, I will use a more obvious emoticon when I'm being facetious (alas, the green disappointed one is my favourite).

Oh man. I'm sorry for misreading your posts. I can't tell subtle sarcasm unless emoticons are used.
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Youtube didn't have these, but ones that come to my mind are:
  • Rachael Flatt SP WTT 09 3-3
  • Fumie Suguri SP Skate America this season 3flip (though Tara Lipinki pointed out in the icenetwork feed that it might get a call


Um, I don't know about Rachael's case, but Fumie's was quite visible. I was there, and I was pretty sure it was gonna get DGed.
 

Daniel5555

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
R.D.
I'm not too sure I see that so much as I see a horde of Yuna uberfans showing up to protest her DG. I mean come on guys, 65 points for a pop AND a DG is still INSANELY high.
That UR is hard to see (if it's present). Some people can't see it after watching the video for several times, but that's just because they don't see it. I think I saw it the first time when I saw the performance for the first time, it was like "hey, something strange just happened". But I don't know really, maybe I'm wrong and that call is, in fact, unfair. And there are a lot of people who don't see it, so maybe they are right.

65 points is not insanely high at all, looking at her overall quality.
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I'm not too sure I see that so much as I see a horde of Yuna uberfans showing up to protest her DG. I mean come on guys, 65 points for a pop AND a DG is still INSANELY high. :scratch:


Well, to be fair, it's the principle of the matter--whether UR calls that close should be called--that's being debated here. What Yu-Na actually scored is sort of irrelevant--this debate can and will still be beaten to dead-horseness even if Yu-Na had scored 80 or 50 pts for her performance today.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Oh man. I'm sorry for misreading your posts. I can't tell subtle sarcasm unless emoticons are used.

No worries, it's often hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic/joking when all you see is text (I've fallen victim to that myself, after all). Emoticons are definitely helpful, and maybe I'll choose to write in blue or something when I'm feeling particularly facetious so I won't be terribly misconstrued. :yes:
 

rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Sorry, but I disagree. Yu-Na singling a planned triple and being downgraded on a triple+triple attempt and still being less than 1 point close to a clean Miki Ando is just plain wrong. It's not like Miki is the same calibre as someone like Mira Leung or Tugba Karademir. She's a former world champ and the reigning world bronze medalist for crying out loud. Kim is not that much better a skater than Ando, IMO.

You gotta be kidding. I see huge gap between Miki's mechanical/boring style and Yuna's elegant/exciting style. Are you kidding? Did you forget about the difference in the score when Yuna won 2009 world title? She is in her class of her own.
 

rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Er... Sorry, but I can't possibly agree with you.
I suggest you get a chance to see them compete right at the scene.
If you can't tell the difference after that, I suggest you go see an eye doctor ASAP. I was totally blown away by Yu-na's skating. Faster, higher, more powerful than anybody else. Such a beautiful skater.

I agree with Marie_S. Before I saw the live competition of Miki and Yuna at 2008 SA, I thought that they were in the same league. However, it was not. There is clearly huge gap btw two. Of course I liked Miki's powerful jumps and skatings.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Youtube didn't have these, but ones that come to my mind are:
  • Rachael Flatt SP WTT 09 3-3
  • Fumie Suguri SP Skate America this season 3flip (though Tara Lipinki pointed out in the icenetwork feed that it might get a call
Um, I don't know about Rachael's case, but Fumie's was quite visible. I was there, and I was pretty sure it was gonna get DGed.
I agree about Fumie's call, it was UR'd.

It's too bad I can't see Rachael's DG'd jump. She's usually very good with her jumps and almost never gets UR or edge calls.

1. I would say Miki Ando's UR on her 3Loop at SA last year in the short. Her combo was probably the biggest one of the 3Lz-3L.

2. I guess you haven't read numerous posts about how X fans "just" want to see fair judging for the sport (even though their skater got wronged) but they only defend their skater, fighting tooth and nail. You can be die-hardly screaming for objectivity in judging and scrutinize every skater except your favorite. You can scrutinize your favorites too.
I'd have to disagree with you about that. And again, it's too bad I can't see it either, but I don't believe it was such an obviously bad UR call. Ando also had problems fully rotating it later in the season. Maybe that's why she's doing a 3-2 instead of the 3-3 this season.

I agree with being fairer and not just railing against the establishment for "perfect" YuNa ('cause she's not perfect even on her better days...who is?) while ignoring injustices elsewhere.

However, I also have a suspicion that most figure skating fans do not come from a country who has had one good figure skater in its whole history, and she happens to be a top-tier skater getting a very unusual and tight UR call in a nation that is historically her "rival" country. I realize that YuNa-bots are one of the most annoying and persistent fanatics, but I also feel there is a lot of self-righteousness directed at them for being un-uniquely human. Most of them are more fans of YuNa than of Figure Skating itself and I myself have argued with more than a handful of them as I am wont to do. But it seems the best thing to do is to flag those posts, let the mods do their job, and move on. The very fact that they typically have less than 20 posts means it's not worth "fighting" with them. Or if you're going to complain about those types of posters, then at least be consistent, as there are other "once in a blue moon" type of negative posters who are obviously fans of other skaters... :no:
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
You gotta be kidding. I see huge gap between Miki's mechanical/boring style and Yuna's elegant/exciting style. Are you kidding? Did you forget about the difference in the score when Yuna won 2009 world title? She is in her class of her own.

No, I am not kidding. Yu-Na didn't make TWO MAJOR mistakes in the SP like singling a triple and under-rotating her triple toe in the jump combo either in the Worlds SP. Without question, when both are clean, Kim definitely beats Ando, hands down, but Yu-Na was far from clean in this SP and she is way too close in the scores with a clean Miki. If Yu-Na went clean and only scored less than 1 point above a 2 major mistakes skate by Miki, I have a feeling you'd be questioning the placements too.
 
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rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Ice Network showed a freeze capture slow mo of Yu-Na 3/3 ; it was obviously 1/4 short and even a little more. A definite UR. In real time I admit it looks good; but the panel gets to use slo mo. So I don't know why you guys are causing such a ruckes; she underrotated and got caught big deal.

You should buy a pair of glasses. You need to corrrect your eye-sight. Do you have a decent health insurance to cover it?
 
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rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
No, I am not kidding. Yu-Na didn't make TWO MAJOR mistakes in the SP like singling a triple and under-rotating her triple toe in the jump combo either in the Worlds SP. Without question, when both are clean, Kim definitely beats Ando, hands down, but Yu-Na was far from clean in this SP and she is way too close in the scores with a clean Miki. If Yu-Na went clean and only scored less than 1 point above a 2 major mistakes skate by Miki, I have a feeling you'd be questioning the placements too.

I do not buy your assessment that Miki did her clean performance at all. Her jumps yesterday were not as good as before. Her 3-2 jump clearly showed under-rotation. Another triple and double axel were also weak. You can not say "clean" just based on no popping or no falls. Maybe she did "pretend to be clean" performance
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
It's true that Yu-Na's score was too high if you consider the retarded downgrade she received. She is overinflated in several areas of her score, even if she IS probably the most talented lady skating today.

Her score was accurate for the performance she actually gave, though. 65 points with a popped jump is fine, when you consider her amazing 3-3. I would have put her ahead of Miki (who made a mistake on the Layback, remember).

All in all...I wish the edge call idiocy on Yu-Na's Flip wouldn't have happened last year. She should be doing a 3Flip-3Toe combo and a 3Lutz out of footwork, as she always has.

These calls are like Michelle Kwan being told that her Spiral Sequence deserves a penalty.

It simply makes no sense at all and, as a skater, when you are told that one of your BEST elements is actually flawed (when it really isn't)...that seriously messes with your head.
 

daisies

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Just watched on Universal Sports. IMO the judging seems correct. Just because Miki was "clean" doesn't mean she should be miles ahead of Yuna, because that assumes everything else is equal, and it's not. For example, Yuna's layback looked to have four features, so it should have gotten level 4. Miki's layback had one feature (8 revs in one position) so it should have gotten level 1, and my guess is it also got minus GOEs. Then Miki's PCS were probably affected because she stood there for an eternity before the steps -- obviously that layback was supposed to have more features (sideways-leaning spin was one she attempted but didn't hold for the required 3 revs since it was badly centered from the start), but she exited early and the music had to catch up.

Miki skated great, for sure, and deserves to be 1st, but Yuna's basic skating -- her posture, especially -- is so much better. JMHO.
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Having done endless frame-by-frame replays of jump landings by now (thanks a lot, COP), I will say that Yuna's 3t landing is exactly the same as any of her other successful 3t landings, with a bobble on the glide out that came after the landing. Maybe the last bit is what confused the tech caller? It definitely did not deserve a downgrade.

And on the topic of frame-by-frame jump analysis, congrats to Miki for completely fixing her lip! She used to lip, right? It's hard to believe now. Miki joins a very rare club of female skaters who can land all 6 triples in competition cleanly.
 

rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
I'm not too sure I see that so much as I see a horde of Yuna uberfans showing up to protest her DG. I mean come on guys, 65 points for a pop AND a DG is still INSANELY high. :scratch:

R.D.

Please see the point. I am not complaining that Yuna lost her SP yesterday. I am talking about the justificaion for DG ing her wonderful 3:3 jump. Just use your common sense. How can you explain the gap btw technical specialist's DG call and 1.6 GOE from 9 judges? You are apparently missing the point. Please get to the point. I would argue even if Yuna won SP with 20 point lead. !!!!!!!!!!!
 

so_proud

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
No, I am not kidding. Yu-Na didn't make TWO MAJOR mistakes in the SP like singling a triple and under-rotating her triple toe in the jump combo either in the Worlds SP. Without question, when both are clean, Kim definitely beats Ando, hands down, but Yu-Na was far from clean in this SP and she is way too close in the scores with a clean Miki. If Yu-Na went clean and only scored less than 1 point above a 2 major mistakes skate by Miki, I have a feeling you'd be questioning the placements too.

Let's make it clear. Yuna didn't make two major mistakes here but just one (singled flip). The other mistake, in my opinion, was made by the technical panel.

Have you seen her SP, by the way? Her SP was great except the poped flip.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Having done endless frame-by-frame replays of jump landings by now (thanks a lot, COP), I will say that Yuna's 3t landing is exactly the same as any of her other successful 3t landings, with a bobble on the glide out that came after the landing. Maybe the last bit is what confused the tech caller? It definitely did not deserve a downgrade.

This is a BIG problem I see when it comes to underrotation calls.

When there is some kind of jiggle after a jump has already been rotated, technical specialists suddenly feel the need to downgrade the jump. With Yu-Na's 3-3 here there was no problem at all; the blade simply swung around quickly after landing.

I recently re-watched Evan Lysacek's 3Axel that was downgraded this year at Skate America in the SP...he actually made the rotation. It was a bit short, but past the 1/4 turn mark. His problem with the jump (other than his crappy technique of spinning into the jump rather than jumping and THEN rotating) was that he landed on the inside edge, which caused the landing to skid and look like it was an underrotated landing.
 
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