Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP | Page 20 | Golden Skate

Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP

DarkestMoon

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
I have been angry about bad calls and the way in which underrotated jumps are graded since early 2007. I have been campaigning against this horrible judging constantly.

Mathman can tell you this (with regards to my activity on this message board, in any case).

2007 U.S. Nationals, when Kimmie Meissner received full credit for what was clearly an underrotated 3-3, is what set off bells and released the demons.

Since then, we have seen major victims of jumps being downgraded. Yukari Nakano placing 4th at 2008 Worlds was a disgrace and showed how flawed CoP is.

The current rule revision in CoP for negative GOE not being automatically given to underrotated jumps was partially my doing and I intend to push more changes through.

I didn't realize you're a part of the ISU. :p I find it hard to believe that Meissner was the only one getting ratified 3-3 and single 3s that was UR. Skaters have been getting away with URs back in 6.0 as well.

I'm not sure if you're saying that Nakano deserved to be higher or lower. If anything, Miki Ando has not gotten anything in her favor. She's had several triple loops nailed upon closer inspection but looks good in real time. The hot debate last year was when is it appropriate to look at replay and when is it okay to go by just real time. Ubers are screaming for just real-time because their favorite's scores were hurt by replay and that's just it. They're only screaming for fair judging because it's about their favorites and not about the benefit of the sport.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
It's worst than ever, especially with the "I don't mean to bring XXX up but...." and "No offense but...." as a false pretense of objectivity.
I love it when someone does that. Because it gives me a neat little window into that person's mindset, not to mention a delicious opportunity to slam them for their cognitive dissonance if I feel so inclined... ;) (I know I'm not supposed to, teehee.)

And, wow, that screenshot stretched my post out weirdly.

Good to have a clear visual, though.

Mods, PM me if you need it to be resized.
Please, do not resize Post #372, that thing needs to be seen by every single person visiting this thread and those loser YouTube'rs who post slo-mo "video proof" of "underrotation" and have no idea what they're talking about.

How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?
A lot of people actually did. BoP is one of the most consistent and vocal, for example.

I did here and there for other skaters, but YuNa's 3-3 downgrade is the worst I have seen. Of course I'm inclined to look more carefully when it's my favourite skater, but I don't know if anyone else will show me an example of a worse call.

How about you give us an example of a worse call?

I have been angry about bad calls and the way in which underrotated jumps are graded since early 2007. I have been campaigning against this horrible judging constantly.

Mathman can tell you this (with regards to my activity on this message board, in any case).
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
well after pause /play/pausing about a hundred time i would say her toe-pic was touching the ice about 100 degrees short of rotation and then the rest of the blade at 45 degrees. I would consider this UR. I think Miki got lucky;
 

macemace1980

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Ugh, I understand how you feel if you were Scottish, Korean and Japanese! (My Korean and Japanese friends, they hang out well but whenever history comes up, they are like cats and dogs... lol -- which I perfectly understand why.)


I hate to bring Korea/Japan thing in here, but no one can deny the fact that nationality does play some tricks in figure skating. That's why we have a new system, and we continue to question if it is working.




Do you really hate to bring " Korea-Japan " thing here? If I am not wrong,
it is you who started criticising a Japanese referee and everyone here explained that she wasn't tech-controller today, you insisted that Yuna's score was low because of her.

I love Yuna but she didn't skate better today and her 3-3 wasn't her usual 3-3.

But lately, I haven't really cared about scores. What I love Yuna is not because she gets 76 points, but she is talented and tries 3-3 which no female skater tries now.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
YuNa's 3Lz-3T had a less rotated 3T at TEB 2009 than her combo last night (and still within 1/4), and I recall pointing this out. It was rightfully not downgraded.

Take a look.

YuNa is not supporting her weight in the frame that has been screenshotted by BoP, nor would she be making a mark on the ice in that moment.

:eek:hwell:
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Raging hyperboles aside, UR calls on what looked like real-time acceptable jumps were made last season. How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?

The question is really whether you're all upset over a bad judging call or upset because Yu-na got a bad call. If you truly about the first over the latter, yeah, I do hope that many of you will ride in like a white knight for EVERY "misjudged" skater.

Especially all those suspiciously new accounts created today with no other posts besides ones raging over Yu-Na's 3T and how those evil Japanese are out to get her :disapp:
 

so_proud

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
well after pause /play/pausing about a hundred time i would say her toe-pic was touching the ice about 100 degrees short of rotation and then the rest of the blade at 45 degrees. I would consider this UR. I think Miki got lucky;

Well...I don't think it is underrotated.
Anyway, your saying even reflects that, if any technical specialist and replay operator are really looking for a chance to get her jumps downgraded, they can make a rather easy DG decision on a flaw-less flaw that you even had to repeat pause/play/pause about hundred times (maybe still confused?;)).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Come on. Let me demonstrate proposal.

1. Put a referece point in arena. This will be degree 0
2. Put a laser/touch sensor in a player's blades. It will position the angle of take off with respect to the reference point. The revolution is only counted for jumping period. Jump period is determined by a touch sensior. An actuator can be used for the sensor. Any type of piezoelectric material converts pressure to the electrical signal. After land, the sensor detects the angle of landing
3. The count the rovolution can be easily calculated by difference btw take off and landing angle.

This "device" just calculates the actual rotation in the air therefore may reveal some inconvenient truth.:biggrin:

:laugh: The inconventient truth is that every jump is both prerotated and underrotated. If you think about the mechanics of jumping while turning, how could it be otherwise? The typical well-performed "triple" jump has about 2.25 actual rotations in the air.

Rosedale, there have been lots of tests of such devices. I remember last year there was a study of this sort of the exact position of each vertabra of Shizuka Arakawa's spine when she does an Ina Bower, because it seemed to be impossible what she could do. :laugh:

The tech problem lies with the supposed sensors in the blade. What do we mean by the exact moment of take-off and the exact moment of landing?

By the way, the comparison with that instant replay thing in tennis that shows whether a ball is in or out, is interesting in its own right. What we see on our television screens is not the tennis ball. It is a computer-generated cartoon. Many players swear that what is shown on TV is absolutely not what the ball actually did in real life.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Rank.Skater.....................TES/PCS __(TES-PCS)
1.Yu-Na KIM...............206.53/192.48__(+14.05)
2.Miki ANDO................164.84/172.64__(-07.80)
3.Joannie ROCHETTE....165.76/181.32__(-15.56)
4.Alena LEONOVA........164.83/157.08__(+07.75)
5.Ashley WAGNER........160.24/159.72__(+00.52)
6.Akiko SUZUKI...........176.86/147.52__(+29.34)
--< Alternatives>--
7.Rachael FLATT.........175.66/157.96__(+17.70)
8.Alissa CZISNY..........161.59/163.24__(-01.65)
9.Mao ASADA.............149.03/178.24__(-29.21)
--------------------------------------------------
AVE..........................169.48/167.80__(+01.68)

koongpa said
At least Yu-na skated her "overscored" program in a country other than her own: exactly!

There seems to be a perception among fans that if your program component scores are higher than your element scores, then you are overscored, and if it is the other way around then you are underscored.

I don't get that reasoning. It is perfectly possible for a skater to do well on many of her elements, but to present uninspired choreography, weak skating skills and little in the way of transitions. And vice versa.

One way is not any more overscored or underscored than the other.
 
S

sleepyjl

Guest
Raging hyperboles aside, UR calls on what looked like real-time acceptable jumps were made last season. How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?

The question is really whether you're all upset over a bad judging call or upset because Yu-na got a bad call. If you truly about the first over the latter, yeah, I do hope that many of you will ride in like a white knight for EVERY "misjudged" skater.

For these problems and complaints, I'm surprised there is no Universal tech caller from ISU, like a Nellie Kim in gymnastics, as the honcho who is called onto the floor when needed to make tough calls.

For the record, I have looked at the slo-mo replay several times, and the UR call was bad. That said, I don't think there was any deliberate conspiracy against Yuna. It's more likely that the tech specialist was affected, unconsciously, by the fact that the event was taking place in Japan and Yuna was the biggest rival of the local Japanese skaters. It's not a malicious thing, it's just how humans behave in international competitions. Go back and look at the UR calls over the years and I'd bet my life savings that there have been more questionable UR calls against the rivals of (and for the benefit of) the local country's skaters. Just human nature, folks.

Which is why I love the idea of a rotating roster of 3-4 TRUE tech specialists (i.e., former international-level competitors who aren't currently coaching) for all the international events. With the caveat that a tech specialist can't officiate in a competition held in her own country (for obvious reasons).
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Raging hyperboles aside, UR calls on what looked like real-time acceptable jumps were made last season. How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?

The question is really whether you're all upset over a bad judging call or upset because Yu-na got a bad call. If you truly about the first over the latter, yeah, I do hope that many of you will ride in like a white knight for EVERY "misjudged" skater.

Uh Huh. Indeed. ITA.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Typically any panels I have ever looked at had a much higher % of Euros.

The Olympic panels for instance are not even close to being balanced.

I don't think that you have made your case that "European" judges are more likely to favor European skaters, and similarly for judges from other parts of the world. As this thread shows, I would not necessarily expect a Chinese judge to prop up a Japanese skater just because they are fellow Asians hanging together.

"Statistics show" :laugh: that the country whose judges were toughest on Michelle Kwan was...Canada. :)
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Especially all those suspiciously new accounts created today with no other posts besides ones raging over Yu-Na's 3T and how those evil Japanese are out to get her :disapp:

Well, what more would you expect?

Imagine what it will be like if something like this happens in February.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Especially all those suspiciously new accounts created today with no other posts besides ones raging over Yu-Na's 3T and how those evil Japanese are out to get her :disapp:

I think it's unbelievable for anyone to claim that anyone at this event is out to get Yu-Na considering she singled her solo triple and received a downgrade on her 3+3 combination, yet still managed to score a 65+, less than a point behind a clean Miki Ando, which doesn't seem right to me (and I'm a Yu-Na fan). I say she and her fans should be relieved by that score. Had anyone else made the same technical mistakes, they would have scored in the 50s range or lower.
 
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ehdtkqorl123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
There seems to be a perception among fans that if your program component scores are higher than your element scores, then you are overscored, and if it is the other way around then you are underscored.

I don't get that reasoning. It is perfectly possible for a skater to do well on many of her elements, but to present uninspired choreography, weak skating skills and little in the way of transitions. And vice versa.

One way is not any more overscored or underscored than the other.

But one can suspect that high PCS is possibly given to compensate low TES.
 

DarkestMoon

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Especially all those suspiciously new accounts created today with no other posts besides ones raging over Yu-Na's 3T and how those evil Japanese are out to get her :disapp:

Excuse me, I believe it happens to Mao. Don't even try to say that the rapid Japanese fans are the only ones who do this. I'm talking about the Korean uber fans too.

I did here and there for other skaters, but YuNa's 3-3 downgrade is the worst I have seen. Of course I'm inclined to look more carefully when it's my favourite skater, but I don't know if anyone else will show me an example of a worse call.

How about you give us an example of a worse call?

An example of what I think is the worst judging call? Sure. In the 6.0, Sarah Hughes winning gold with that UR 3-3s. Mistake or not, I would have gladly been happy with Irina Slutskaya winning.

In the CoP, Carolina Kostner winning silver in 2008 and I actually like Carolina but what in hell's bells were the judges smoking? Whatever that was, I'd like some because I'm going to need it to get through the rest of the season. Some people, you know who you are, repeatedly complain (even now) about how Mao won worlds with a face plant and a break in rhythmic flow in her program. Kostner's medal placement is far more egregious that Mao's win or Yu-na's 3T UR.

For the record, I have looked at the slo-mo replay several times, and the UR call was bad. That said, I don't think there was any deliberate conspiracy against Yuna. It's more likely that the tech specialist was affected, unconsciously, by the fact that the event was taking place in Japan and Yuna was the biggest rival of the local Japanese skaters. It's not a malicious thing, it's just how humans behave in international competitions. Go back and look at the UR calls over the years and I'd bet my life savings that there have been more questionable UR calls against the rivals of (and for the benefit of) the local country's skaters. Just human nature, folks.

But that's just speculation. You're treating it as some natural behavior that humans do. Humans make mistakes, yes. Humans acting within the norms is not natural but a result of socialization. It's easier to be part of the pack than be a freak. My point is that you can't just say that since X comp is held in a Y's country where Y and Z have conflicts, judges must score according to Y. That's just an assumption that the judges will be lynched for doing otherwise or that the country in question will withdraw sponsorships.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Excuse me, I believe it happens to Mao. Don't even try to say that the rapid Japanese fans are the only ones who do this. I'm talking about the Korean uber fans too.
First of all, you need to read a little more carefully. evangeline was being sarcastic about the "evil Japanese." Of course, she never leapt out when rabid Japanese fans were saying how Team YuNa etc. were paying the ISU, etc., but whatever.

An example of what I think is the worst judging call? Sure. In the 6.0, Sarah Hughes winning gold with that UR 3-3s. Mistake or not, I would have gladly been happy with Irina Slutskaya winning.
Uh, so would I, but we all know that 6.0 judges weren't sticklers for quality and rotation of jumps.

In the CoP, Carolina Kostner winning silver in 2008 and I actually like Carolina but what in hell's bells were the judges smoking? Whatever that was, I'd like some because I'm going to need it to get through the rest of the season. Some people, you know who you are, repeatedly complain (even now) about how Mao won worlds with a face plant and a break in rhythmic flow in her program. Kostner's medal placement is far more egregious that Mao's win or Yu-na's 3T UR.
I'm talking about bad under-rotation calls. Give me an example of one that has thus far been worse thn YuNa's 3T call last night. Also, as I repeated, YuNa's 3T (contrary to what you say) was less rotated at TEB. Everyone saying her 3T last night deservedly scored less than the one in her SP at TEB are kinda... :scratch: to me.

But that's just speculation. You're treating it as some natural behavior that humans do.
And you seem to be treating it as if it's some moral demand on fans of a particular skater to rally to everyone's defense if they find injustice in the instance of their favourite. I don't expect Mirai or Mao or Miki fans who were unhappy about their respective fav skaters' UR calls to rally to YuNa's side right now.
 
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