Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP

[Mathman]

Come on. Let me demonstrate proposal.

1. Put a referece point in arena. This will be degree 0
2. Put a laser/touch sensor in a player's blades. It will position the angle of take off with respect to the reference point. The revolution is only counted for jumping period. Jump period is determined by a touch sensior. An actuator can be used for the sensor. Any type of piezoelectric material converts pressure to the electrical signal. After land, the sensor detects the angle of landing
3. The count the rovolution can be easily calculated by difference btw take off and landing angle.

This "device" just calculates the actual rotation in the air therefore may reveal some inconvenient truth.

The inconventient truth is that every jump is both prerotated and underrotated. If you think about the mechanics of jumping while turning, how could it be otherwise? The typical well-performed "triple" jump has about 2.25 actual rotations in the air.

Rosedale, there have been lots of tests of such devices. I remember last year there was a study of this sort of the exact position of each vertabra of Shizuka Arakawa's spine when she does an Ina Bower, because it seemed to be impossible what she could do.

The tech problem lies with the supposed sensors in the blade. What do we mean by the exact moment of take-off and the exact moment of landing?

By the way, the comparison with that instant replay thing in tennis that shows whether a ball is in or out, is interesting in its own right. What we see on our television screens is not the tennis ball. It is a computer-generated cartoon. Many players swear that what is shown on TV is absolutely not what the ball actually did in real life.

[Mathman]

Rank.Skater.....................TES/PCS __(TES-PCS)
1.Yu-Na KIM...............206.53/192.48__(+14.05)
2.Miki ANDO................164.84/172.64__(-07.80)
3.Joannie ROCHETTE....165.76/181.32__(-15.56)
4.Alena LEONOVA........164.83/157.08__(+07.75)
5.Ashley WAGNER........160.24/159.72__(+00.52)
6.Akiko SUZUKI...........176.86/147.52__(+29.34)
--< Alternatives>--
7.Rachael FLATT.........175.66/157.96__(+17.70)
8.Alissa CZISNY..........161.59/163.24__(-01.65)
9.Mao ASADA.............149.03/178.24__(-29.21)
--------------------------------------------------
AVE..........................169.48/167.80__(+01.68)

koongpa said
At least Yu-na skated her "overscored" program in a country other than her own: exactly!

There seems to be a perception among fans that if your program component scores are higher than your element scores, then you are overscored, and if it is the other way around then you are underscored.

I don't get that reasoning. It is perfectly possible for a skater to do well on many of her elements, but to present uninspired choreography, weak skating skills and little in the way of transitions. And vice versa.

One way is not any more overscored or underscored than the other.

[sleepyjl]

Raging hyperboles aside, UR calls on what looked like real-time acceptable jumps were made last season. How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?

The question is really whether you're all upset over a bad judging call or upset because Yu-na got a bad call. If you truly about the first over the latter, yeah, I do hope that many of you will ride in like a white knight for EVERY "misjudged" skater.

For these problems and complaints, I'm surprised there is no Universal tech caller from ISU, like a Nellie Kim in gymnastics, as the honcho who is called onto the floor when needed to make tough calls.

For the record, I have looked at the slo-mo replay several times, and the UR call was bad. That said, I don't think there was any deliberate conspiracy against Yuna. It's more likely that the tech specialist was affected, unconsciously, by the fact that the event was taking place in Japan and Yuna was the biggest rival of the local Japanese skaters. It's not a malicious thing, it's just how humans behave in international competitions. Go back and look at the UR calls over the years and I'd bet my life savings that there have been more questionable UR calls against the rivals of (and for the benefit of) the local country's skaters. Just human nature, folks.

Which is why I love the idea of a rotating roster of 3-4 TRUE tech specialists (i.e., former international-level competitors who aren't currently coaching) for all the international events. With the caveat that a tech specialist can't officiate in a competition held in her own country (for obvious reasons).

[R.D.]

Raging hyperboles aside, UR calls on what looked like real-time acceptable jumps were made last season. How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?

The question is really whether you're all upset over a bad judging call or upset because Yu-na got a bad call. If you truly about the first over the latter, yeah, I do hope that many of you will ride in like a white knight for EVERY "misjudged" skater.

Uh Huh. Indeed. ITA.

[Mathman]

Typically any panels I have ever looked at had a much higher % of Euros.

The Olympic panels for instance are not even close to being balanced.

I don't think that you have made your case that "European" judges are more likely to favor European skaters, and similarly for judges from other parts of the world. As this thread shows, I would not necessarily expect a Chinese judge to prop up a Japanese skater just because they are fellow Asians hanging together.

"Statistics show" that the country whose judges were toughest on Michelle Kwan was...Canada.

[R.D.]

Especially all those suspiciously new accounts created today with no other posts besides ones raging over Yu-Na's 3T and how those evil Japanese are out to get her

Well, what more would you expect?

Imagine what it will be like if something like this happens in February.

[museksk8r]

Especially all those suspiciously new accounts created today with no other posts besides ones raging over Yu-Na's 3T and how those evil Japanese are out to get her

I think it's unbelievable for anyone to claim that anyone at this event is out to get Yu-Na considering she singled her solo triple and received a downgrade on her 3+3 combination, yet still managed to score a 65+, less than a point behind a clean Miki Ando, which doesn't seem right to me (and I'm a Yu-Na fan). I say she and her fans should be relieved by that score. Had anyone else made the same technical mistakes, they would have scored in the 50s range or lower.

[ehdtkqorl123]

There seems to be a perception among fans that if your program component scores are higher than your element scores, then you are overscored, and if it is the other way around then you are underscored.

I don't get that reasoning. It is perfectly possible for a skater to do well on many of her elements, but to present uninspired choreography, weak skating skills and little in the way of transitions. And vice versa.

One way is not any more overscored or underscored than the other.

But one can suspect that high PCS is possibly given to compensate low TES.

[DarkestMoon]

Especially all those suspiciously new accounts created today with no other posts besides ones raging over Yu-Na's 3T and how those evil Japanese are out to get her

Excuse me, I believe it happens to Mao. Don't even try to say that the rapid Japanese fans are the only ones who do this. I'm talking about the Korean uber fans too.

I did here and there for other skaters, but YuNa's 3-3 downgrade is the worst I have seen. Of course I'm inclined to look more carefully when it's my favourite skater, but I don't know if anyone else will show me an example of a worse call.

How about you give us an example of a worse call?

An example of what I think is the worst judging call? Sure. In the 6.0, Sarah Hughes winning gold with that UR 3-3s. Mistake or not, I would have gladly been happy with Irina Slutskaya winning.

In the CoP, Carolina Kostner winning silver in 2008 and I actually like Carolina but what in hell's bells were the judges smoking? Whatever that was, I'd like some because I'm going to need it to get through the rest of the season. Some people, you know who you are, repeatedly complain (even now) about how Mao won worlds with a face plant and a break in rhythmic flow in her program. Kostner's medal placement is far more egregious that Mao's win or Yu-na's 3T UR.

For the record, I have looked at the slo-mo replay several times, and the UR call was bad. That said, I don't think there was any deliberate conspiracy against Yuna. It's more likely that the tech specialist was affected, unconsciously, by the fact that the event was taking place in Japan and Yuna was the biggest rival of the local Japanese skaters. It's not a malicious thing, it's just how humans behave in international competitions. Go back and look at the UR calls over the years and I'd bet my life savings that there have been more questionable UR calls against the rivals of (and for the benefit of) the local country's skaters. Just human nature, folks.

But that's just speculation. You're treating it as some natural behavior that humans do. Humans make mistakes, yes. Humans acting within the norms is not natural but a result of socialization. It's easier to be part of the pack than be a freak. My point is that you can't just say that since X comp is held in a Y's country where Y and Z have conflicts, judges must score according to Y. That's just an assumption that the judges will be lynched for doing otherwise or that the country in question will withdraw sponsorships.

[prettykeys]

Excuse me, I believe it happens to Mao. Don't even try to say that the rapid Japanese fans are the only ones who do this. I'm talking about the Korean uber fans too.

First of all, you need to read a little more carefully. evangeline was being sarcastic about the "evil Japanese." Of course, she never leapt out when rabid Japanese fans were saying how Team YuNa etc. were paying the ISU, etc., but whatever.

An example of what I think is the worst judging call? Sure. In the 6.0, Sarah Hughes winning gold with that UR 3-3s. Mistake or not, I would have gladly been happy with Irina Slutskaya winning.

Uh, so would I, but we all know that 6.0 judges weren't sticklers for quality and rotation of jumps.

In the CoP, Carolina Kostner winning silver in 2008 and I actually like Carolina but what in hell's bells were the judges smoking? Whatever that was, I'd like some because I'm going to need it to get through the rest of the season. Some people, you know who you are, repeatedly complain (even now) about how Mao won worlds with a face plant and a break in rhythmic flow in her program. Kostner's medal placement is far more egregious that Mao's win or Yu-na's 3T UR.

I'm talking about bad under-rotation calls. Give me an example of one that has thus far been worse thn YuNa's 3T call last night. Also, as I repeated, YuNa's 3T (contrary to what you say) was less rotated at TEB. Everyone saying her 3T last night deservedly scored less than the one in her SP at TEB are kinda... to me.

But that's just speculation. You're treating it as some natural behavior that humans do.

And you seem to be treating it as if it's some moral demand on fans of a particular skater to rally to everyone's defense if they find injustice in the instance of their favourite. I don't expect Mirai or Mao or Miki fans who were unhappy about their respective fav skaters' UR calls to rally to YuNa's side right now.

[sleepyjl]

But that's just speculation. You're treating it as some natural behavior that humans do. Humans make mistakes, yes. Humans acting within the norms is not natural but a result of socialization. It's easier to be part of the pack than be a freak. My point is that you can't just say that since X comp is held in a Y's country where Y and Z have conflicts, judges must score according to Y. That's just an assumption that the judges will be lynched for doing otherwise or that the country in question will withdraw sponsorships.

You're misreading what I said. Judges are not consciously making these biased calls; it's not because they're worried about getting lynched or the loss of sponsorships or even about peer pressure. It's just the way people behave. Go to any athletic competition and ask the fans to keep track of penalties objectively and voila, they believe (honestly) that their opponents are committing more penalties. "Well, duh," you say. But what is astounding is that you can predict how non-fans (i.e., people who have no investment in one team or another) will count penalties based on which team's section they are sitting in!!! It's just how humans are hard-wired. They end up identifying with the people around them and show bias against people the surrounding crowd sees as the "other" without even realizing it.

[so_proud]

I think it's unbelievable for anyone to claim that anyone at this event is out to get Yu-Na considering she singled her solo triple and received a downgrade on her 3+3 combination, yet still managed to score a 65+, less than a point behind a clean Miki Ando, which doesn't seem right to me (and I'm a Yu-Na fan). I say she and her fans should be relieved by that score. Had anyone else made the same technical mistakes, they would have scored in the 50s range or lower.

To most of Yu-na fans, the issue is about the wrong judges on DG not just about her overall scores or her place.

Had anyone else made the same technical mistakes on the same quality 3-3 and performed with the same skating quality throughout SP, I am sure they would have scored no lower than Yuna has.

[gourry]

The inconventient truth is that every jump is both prerotated and underrotated. If you think about the mechanics of jumping while turning, how could it be otherwise? The typical well-performed "triple" jump has about 2.25 actual rotations in the air.

Uh-uh. At least not a well-performed lutz. Just take a look at Yuna's or Miki's lutz from today's SP. There are virtually no prerotations at all.

[sleepyjl]

Uh-uh. At least not a well-performed lutz. Just take a look at Yuna's or Miki's lutz from today's SP. There are virtually no prerotations at all.

I agree. Lutzes and flips are, from a mechanical perspective, actually pretty hard to pre-rotate.

[Mathman]

Well, I just got to see it on the full television screen on Universal sports. I have to agree with So Proud. Dispite the flip and the downgrade, the overall quality of Kim's skating is simply in a class by itself (unless Mao Asada comes back to full form. )

Uh-uh. At least not a well-performed lutz. Just take a look at Yuna's or Miki's lutz from today's SP. There are virtually no prerotations at all.

Quite true. I think that is why there are so few women who can do a true triple Lutz. Getting around a full three revolutions from a true Lutz edge is just beyond the capability of most lady skaters.