Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP

[evangeline]

First of all, you need to read a little more carefully. evangeline was being sarcastic about the "evil Japanese." Of course, she never leapt out when rabid Japanese fans were saying how Team YuNa etc. were paying the ISU, etc., but whatever.

Oh great, now I'm being painted as an anti-YuNa (/un-YuNa?) fan.

I'm too lazy to trawl through my old posts for *proof*, but I really, really dislike it when people automatically assume a skater is over/underscored or being targetted just because of their ethnicity (or because of the judges/tech caller's ethnicity). For instance, in this thread alone, I've also disagreed with comments that Alena Leonova was overscored just because she is Russian...just ask Janetfan to see how much I hound him when he says European skaters are being overscored because of all those evil Euro judges on the panel.

As for not leaping out at rabid Japanese fans, I actually don't remember seeing them around GS for awhile. They're either licking their wounds at Mao's apparent demise, or off on Youtube (which I've given up commenting on) uploading their stupid videos. But if they drop by GS anytime soon, I'll be sure to make some pithy comments.

[YN fan]

Raging hyperboles aside, UR calls on what looked like real-time acceptable jumps were made last season. How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?

The question is really whether you're all upset over a bad judging call or upset because Yu-na got a bad call. If you truly about the first over the latter, yeah, I do hope that many of you will ride in like a white knight for EVERY "misjudged" skater.

For these problems and complaints, I'm surprised there is no Universal tech caller from ISU, like a Nellie Kim in gymnastics, as the honcho who is called onto the floor when needed to make tough calls.

I sort of agree and disagree. I don't know much about skating but Yuna is the most talked-about skater in the world right now. I know some skating fans are tired of hearing fans talking about Yuna only just like some golf fans are tired of hearing about Tiger Woods only. I wish other skaters get as much recognition as well for their excellence.

However, Yuna is the current world champion and probably the best female skater under this Cop era so far. it is a natural tendency for Yuna fans and other skating fans to state their opinions strongly about fair call or unfair call aganist Yuna more than any other skater because she is the best in the world right now. After all, she is the only skater who has "is this skater overmarked?" thread on this forum, I think....

That aside, I can't say the call was fair or unfair because, like I said, I don't know much about skating. I will live with the judge's decision as a fan. I'm happy Yuna got 65 given the fact that she made two major errors. some people suggested that that was still too high because other skaters who make mistakes would get around mid 50. that is a little bit unfair observation. Yuna is not like the other skaters. Her skating and presentation as a whole is superior to other skaters' skating. there is a reason she is a world champion.

To my fellow Yuna fans. Hey, it's not like the end of the world. Yuna still has a great chance of winning this event. If Yuna doesn't win this event, then so be it. I would rather see Yuna win at the olympic and lose all the GP event than see Yuna win all GP events and not win the olympic.

[DarkestMoon]

Go back and look at the UR calls over the years and I'd bet my life savings that there have been more questionable UR calls against the rivals of (and for the benefit of) the local country's skaters. Just human nature, folks.

And so, I decided to go back and look through the GP season of 07-08, because that's when URs (and edge calls) were introduced and because those were the results I could find on ISU. I used country names when there is more than one skater at an event from the same country. I only include the big names and the local skaters.

Skate America:

USA: in the SP; the American women combined had a total of 4. In the FS, a total of 8.
Japan: a total of two in the SP; in the FS, a total of 3

Skate Canada:

Canada: in both SP and FS; none
Japan: total of 1 in SP; total of 1 in FS
USA: 1 in the SP; total of 1 in FS

Cup of China:

Carolina: none in SP; 1 in FS
USA: 1 in SP; in 8 in FS
Yu-na: none; none
China: none in SP; 6 in FS

Eric Bompard:

USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: 3 in SP; 5 in FS
Dider (France): 1 in SP; 1 FS

Cup of Russia:

Yu-na: none in SP; none in FS
Japan: none; 4 in FS
Russia: 1 in SP; 4 in FS
Joannie: none; none

NHK Trophy:

Carolina: none in SP; none
Japan: none; 4
USA: none; 3

GPF in Torino:

Yu-na: none in SP; none
Carolina: none; none
USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: none; none

Italics are for home country skaters and bold is for skaters with the most total URs. Take a good look (and ignore different judges in different comps for a second).

[museksk8r]

some people suggested that that was still too high because other skaters who make mistakes would get around mid 50. that is a little bit unfair observation. Yuna is not like the other skaters. Her skating and presentation as a whole is superior to other skaters' skating. there is a reason she is a world champion.

Sorry, but I disagree. Yu-Na singling a planned triple and being downgraded on a triple+triple attempt and still being less than 1 point close to a clean Miki Ando is just plain wrong. It's not like Miki is the same calibre as someone like Mira Leung or Tugba Karademir. She's a former world champ and the reigning world bronze medalist for crying out loud. Kim is not that much better a skater than Ando, IMO.

[R.D.]

Yeah, not too convinced as to why some Yuna fans are making a HUGE deal out of this. If she goes clean tomorrow and wins by like 40 points you guys will practically forget this ever happened.

[gourry]

Skate America:

USA: in the SP; the American women combined had a total of 3. In the FS, a total of 8.
Japan: a total of two in the SP; in the FS, a total of 3

If I remember correctly, at least 5 of the US downgrades were from Caroline. Oh well.

Cup of China:

Carolina: none in SP; 1 in FS
USA: 1 in SP; in 8 in FS
Yu-na: none; none
China: none in SP; 6 in FS

And here was Caroline again. Poor thing.

Again, IIRC, Caroline and Ashley had really tough season that season DGwise.
So the number doesn't really support anything when there is a big time underrotater....

[sleepyjl]

And so, I decided to go back and look through the GP season of 07-08, because that's when URs (and edge calls) were introduced and because those were the results I could find on ISU. I used country names when there is more than one skater at an event from the same country. I only include the big names and the local skaters.

Skate America:

USA: in the SP; the American women combined had a total of 3. In the FS, a total of 8.
Japan: a total of two in the SP; in the FS, a total of 3

Skate Canada:

Canada: in both SP and FS; none
Japan: total of 1 in SP; total of 1 in FS
USA: 1 in the SP; total of 1 in FS

Cup of China:

Carolina: none in SP; 1 in FS
USA: 1 in SP; in 8 in FS
Yu-na: none; none
China: none in SP; 6 in FS

Eric Bompard:

USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: 3 in SP; 5 in FS
Dider (France): 1 in SP; 1 FS

Cup of Russia:

Yu-na: none in SP; none in FS
Japan: none; 4 in FS
Russia: 1 in SP; 4 in FS
Joannie: none; none

NHK Trophy:

Carolina: none in SP; none
Japan: none; 4
USA: none; 3

GPF in Torino:

Yu-na: none in SP; none
Carolina: none; none
USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: none; none

Italics are for home country skaters and bold is for skaters with the most total URs. Take a good look (and ignore different judges in different comps for a second).

Thanks for the all the hard legwork! Fascinating to see the results. To truly test my hypo, though, you'd have to count how many skaters participated from each country and how many of the UR calls were questionable.

[prettykeys]

Oh great, now I'm being painted as an anti-YuNa (/un-YuNa?) fan.

No, I am expressing my belief that you are biased when you argue with/complain about YuNa fans. There is nastiness being tossed from both sides.

Also, you have a tendency to distortedly summarize other posters' positions, as you have done so twice in this thread with mine.

But what seems to be a near-consensus is that the UR call on the 3T was plain bad. I don't have any reason to believe it was motivated by dishonesty. Actually so far, this event has been relatively well-judged.

[DarkestMoon]

Adding that monster post of mine, here are a few things to consider:

1. The cream of the crop didn't go to every single competition, which is why some UR totals are far out there. Most of them came from low tier skaters.

2. Those who had no URs in that GP season eventually did get a UR in some other comp. Just because you made it through a GP season without any, doesn't mean you'll NEVER get one.

All these URs did a number of the skaters' scores with the double penalty. So while people may complain about Yu-na's UR, her score didn't suffer as bad as others.

[DarkestMoon]

Thanks for the all the hard legwork! Fascinating to see the results. To truly test my hypo, though, you'd have to count how many skaters participated from each country and how many of the UR calls were questionable.

Thanks! Haha, I should mention most home turf comps have 3 local skaters except Eric Bompard and oddly, NHK (?)

I can say that the in SA, the American women's URs were pretty obvious.

[Mathman]

Moderator's note: This is a great thread! Thank you, one and all, for keeping it civil and courteous despite the lightning rod topic.

[Daniel5555]

Well, I'm honestly surprised about this thread. I was sure to see more angry talk, but for some strange reason people here were more angry to Yuna when she scored high and now they are kind to her when she finished second.

Well, that's ok with me.

Today's performance was good overall. Reminds me the last year's GPs when errors from Yuna were more presented than in her latest competitions. She needs to skate without putting pressure on herself like she did at the last 4CC and Worlds. Probably she felt a bit relieved after knowing that she is on second place.
There is nothing special about this. And Miki Ando is a very strong skater. I always considered her and Joannie as... the strongest skaters besides Mao and Yuna.

I don't think that Yuna has any problem with her Flip. The situation is not at the same point as with her Loop, so I think it's all ok. Her 3-3 combination in my opinion was slightly underrotated (more than at TEB for sure). Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I saw. The judges could downgrade it or not, as it was just on frontier. That technical caller seems to be very strict, so he did it. I expected something like this really. It looks like other judges didn't think the same way.
Anyway, overall her jump combination is gorgeous and looking at it, I think that it won't be downgraded in the future and there is no any problem with it.

Her performance was good anyway and she really filled the audience with emotions. Let's see what will happen tomorrow. It looks like Yuna is going through strict judgement and some commentators noted that she couldn't loose so much points, but the judges are judges and right now, I think, we only have to accept their decision. Sometimes when you are best, you are judged more strictly than others and Yuna is... the best.

[Marie_S]

Kim is not that much better a skater than Ando, IMO.

Er... Sorry, but I can't possibly agree with you.
I suggest you get a chance to see them compete right at the scene.
If you can't tell the difference after that, I suggest you go see an eye doctor ASAP. I was totally blown away by Yu-na's skating. Faster, higher, more powerful than anybody else. Such a beautiful skater.

[DarkestMoon]

I'm talking about bad under-rotation calls. Give me an example of one that has thus far been worse thn YuNa's 3T call last night. Also, as I repeated, YuNa's 3T (contrary to what you say) was less rotated at TEB. Everyone saying her 3T last night deservedly scored less than the one in her SP at TEB are kinda... to me.

And you seem to be treating it as if it's some moral demand on fans of a particular skater to rally to everyone's defense if they find injustice in the instance of their favourite. I don't expect Mirai or Mao or Miki fans who were unhappy about their respective fav skaters' UR calls to rally to YuNa's side right now.

1. I would say Miki Ando's UR on her 3Loop at SA last year in the short. Her combo was probably the biggest one of the 3Lz-3L.

2. I guess you haven't read numerous posts about how X fans "just" want to see fair judging for the sport (even though their skater got wronged) but they only defend their skater, fighting tooth and nail. You can be die-hardly screaming for objectivity in judging and scrutinize every skater except your favorite. You can scrutinize your favorites too.

[hikki]

I did here and there for other skaters, but YuNa's 3-3 downgrade is the worst I have seen. Of course I'm inclined to look more carefully when it's my favourite skater, but I don't know if anyone else will show me an example of a worse call.

Youtube didn't have these, but ones that come to my mind are:

• Rachael Flatt SP WTT 09 3-3
• Fumie Suguri SP Skate America this season 3flip (though Tara Lipinki pointed out in the icenetwork feed that it might get a call

We do have to admit there is an element of 'how could my favourite skater xx be treated like this?' in a discussion like this. Especially when it's about someone as celebrated as Yu-Na. I for one didn't protest Yukari's 3flip UR call at World 08 as she just doesn't do it for me anyway.

I do think, however, all of this goes to show how unnecessary it is to make UR calls when you can't see with your naked eyes