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Thread: Grand Prix Final: Mens LP

  1. #166
    Medalist coconutpunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Is it Morozovs tactic to play it safe again?
    At least he will skip Nationals, thats great
    I think it was a good call from Morozov - reports said Nobu didn't land any of his quad attempts during practice today, and even his usually solid 3A landings were looking shaky during the warm-up. Nobu himself did say in interviews that his first priority here was not to win the GPF, but to make the Olympic team.

  2. #167
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viv View Post
    I agree. Most important thing was to get the ticket to Vancouver, and I think it is important for him that he finished ahead of Dai, especially towards the Japanese federation. Dai has the pressure on his shoulders at Nationals now, while Nobu could even skip them if he chooses to. (Which I do hope he will not, but he could.)
    Yeah, but Dai would never miss the Oly spot at Nationals. So he should enjoy himself at Nationals. His PCS was extremely high despite the nearly meltdown performance. He is LOVED by judges and he deserves it. Even if he is off the podium at Nationals for another meltdown, I don't see JSF sending other guy. Ladies are a more close competition, but men's are not.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Thanks for your fair minded comments.

    I tend to think many just can't bring themselves to face what is apparent here.
    It is CoP scoring which gets ridiculous at times. It is easier for fans to rag about Evan than it is to admit where the true problem lies.

    Most think Evan won "fair and square" as you poined out - but seem a little too eager to attack Evan - rather than admitting a scoring system they defend like it is a member of their family is full of so many flaws.

    CoP as a system favors a skater like Evan but not necessarily Johnny or Lambiel, who was mentioned here several times for a score from a few years ago.

    Flawed logic combined with a flawed system has many fans here in a deep state of confusion and denial.
    Is it CoP that is inherently flawed.....or are the judges using CoP (especially PCS) in a flawed way?


    I wonder if Jenny Kirk is going to write an article about PCS favourtism after this event, since Jeremy Abbott was virtually crushed in PCS here by a skater whose choreography, interpretation and skating skills are arguably worse. But of course, it's only favourtism and score inflation when it benefits those evil Euros. :sheesh:

  4. #169
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    I'm sorry; I got up late. Evan WON?

    Holy hat.

    WON? Awesome.

    And Johnny medaled as well?

    Yikes, American ladies can't win Dogcatcher of the Year, and two of our guys are on the podium at GPF.

    Wow. Good going, guys!

  5. #170
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Is it CoP that is inherently flawed.....or are the judges using CoP (especially PCS) in a flawed way?


    I wonder if Jenny Kirk is going to write an article about PCS favourtism after this event, since Jeremy Abbott was virtually crushed in PCS here by a skater whose choreography, interpretation and skating skills are arguably worse. But of course, it's only favourtism and score inflation when it benefits those evil Euros. :sheesh:
    She is taking off from her blog.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Yeah, but Dai would never miss the Oly spot at Nationals. So he should enjoy himself at Nationals. His PCS was extremely high despite the nearly meltdown performance. He is LOVED by judges and he deserves it. Even if he is off the podium at Nationals for another meltdown, I don't see JSF sending other guy. Ladies are a more close competition, but men's are not.
    You are right. Even with a bad performance, and brilliant performances of Nobu and Kozuka, I can't imagine Dai being placed worse than third at Nationals. And that would be enough because they have three spots. But not having to proof anything is even better.

  7. #172
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Is it CoP that is inherently flawed.....or are the judges using CoP (especially PCS) in a flawed way?


    I wonder if Jenny Kirk is going to write an article about PCS favourtism after this event, since Jeremy Abbott was virtually crushed in PCS here by a skater whose choreography, interpretation and skating skills are arguably worse. But of course, it's only favourtism and score inflation when it benefits those evil Euros. :sheesh:
    The top Euros stayed home for various reasons so I don't see how they factor into this discussion.

    What Jenny writes is a matter of her own opinion and she constantly manages to write things that many of us find controversial and at times amusing.

    I hope she does file a report on the GPF. I wonder if she will comment about Akiko's scores at this event?

    As to CoP and the judges - I guess you were joking right? How can a CoP defender use the argument that "the judges don't know how to use the system" be taken seriously?

    That sounds more like an admission of and agreement with my point than a defense of CoP

    My comments were directed more to the fans who feel jealous and even hurt that Evan's marks today are unfair when compared to Lambiel's marks from a few seasons ago, or to Plushy's marks from a different event, etc..

    Such comments and complaints, many from very knowledgeable fans seem to show an uncontrollable bitterness over Evan's success - more than any meaningful or rational discussion about today's GPF competition.

  8. #173
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viv View Post
    You are right. Even with a bad performance, and brilliant performances of Nobu and Kozuka, I can't imagine Dai being placed worse than third at Nationals. And that would be enough because they have three spots. But not having to proof anything is even better.
    Yeah, I hope that he has at least one event before Oly in which he has two clean programs. Esp his LP seems still shaky. I wonder if stamina or what is the problem. He just looked off tonight, rather than the stamina issue today though.
    But he is usually strong at Nationals. So I hope we will see him to that there!

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    The top Euros stayed home for various reasons so I don't see how they factor into this discussion.

    What Jenny writes is a matter of her own opinion and she constantly manages to write things that many of us find controversial and at times amusing.

    I hope she does file a report on the GPF. I wonder if she will comment about Akiko's scores at this event?

    As to CoP and the judges - I guess you were joking right? How can a CoP defender use the argument that "the judges don't know how to use the system" be taken seriously?

    That sounds more like an admission of and agreement with my point than a defense of CoP

    My comments were directed more to the fans who feel jealous and even hurt that Evan's marks today are unfair when compared to Lambiel's marks from a few seasons ago, or to Plushy's marks from a different event, etc..

    Such comments and complaints, many from very knowledgeable fans seem to show an uncontrollable bitterness over Evan's success - more than any meaningful or rational discussion about today's GPF competition.
    No, I wasn't joking about CoP. Firstly, I admit that there are definitely flaws in the CoP--the downgrade rules, for instance. But arguably, the problems of CoP are exacerbated by the fact that the judges aren't necessarily using the system properly.

    Take PCS for instance. Skater X is a rocking performer, has the skate of his life...but his programs clearly lack transitions. In theory, Skater X should receive high 7s or low 8s for his Performance mark, but much lower for his Transitions score....let's say, a 4 or 5. However, what happens in reality is that the judges often tend to score the separate PCS components very close together....so in reality, Skater X may receive mid-to-high 7s for his Transitions despite not having many. Isn't this the fault of the judges? And by the way, I never said that judges didn't know how to use the system....I instead meant that the judges may not be using the system properly--i.e. using PCS as placeholder marks, for instance. There's a difference there.


    As for Lysacek....well, some people genuinely don't feel he deserves nearly-straight 8s across the board for his PCS. But it is perhaps unfair that people take it out on him--it's the judges that give him those scores, after all.
    Last edited by evangeline; 12-05-2009 at 10:43 AM.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    No, I wasn't joking about CoP. Firstly, I admit that there are definitely flaws in the CoP--the downgrade rules, for instance. But arguably, the problems of CoP are exacerbated by the fact that the judges aren't necessarily using the system properly.

    Take PCS for instance. Skater X is a rocking performer, has the skate of his life...but his programs clearly lack transitions. In theory, Skater X should receive high 7s or low 8s for his Performance mark, but much lower for his Transitions score....let's say, a 4 or 5. However, what happens in reality is that the judges often tend to score the separate PCS components very close together....so in reality, Skater X may receive mid-to-high 7s for his Transitions despite not having many. Isn't this the fault of the judges? And by the way, I never said that judges didn't know how to use the system....I instead meant that the judges may not be using the system properly--i.e. using PCS as placeholder marks, for instance. There's a difference there.


    As for Lysacek....well, some people genuinely don't feel he deserves nearly-straight 8s across the board for his PCS. But it is perhaps unfair that people take it out on him--it's the judges that give him those scores, after all.
    Thanks for your comments Evangeline. Something is happening to me as I find myself agreeing with you twice in the same week

    People are not looking at Evan right and strange as it seems they are judging him like a 6.0 skater. I believe Johnny would find it much easier to beat Evan under 6.0 than CoP.

    Evan is just doing what Plushy did back in '06. He is milking the CoP system for all it is worth accentuating his strengths and successfully keeping his weaknesses below the surface.

    I thought he skated exceptionally well and deserved to win. I don't think Evan would win as much under the old system when it was fair for a judge to say, "I like the other skater better." Today they have to award points for elements and the way they are executed. I don't like Evan's steps but it is easy to see he is not skating for me but for the judges. His steps are CoP steps and they score well. So do his spins and his exceptional energy and commanding ice presense.

    Evan is the type of skater who is rewarded by CoP scoring .
    I agree with you it is silly to take anger out on Evan when it is the system and judges that are rewarding Evan. It wouldn't hurt if quite a few (maybe all) of the other guys considered training as hard as Evan does - to actually train like they are athletes at a sporting event and not skaters in pretty costumes.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Johnny Weir is going to make the USFSA send him to Vancouver, which I'm guessing is the last thing they wanted before the season started. Good for Johnny .
    Wait, why would they have to? They don't have to factor in his placement at the Grand Prix Final into their decision of whether he gets to make the Olympic team.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by krenseby View Post
    Wait, why would they have to? They don't have to factor in his placement at the Grand Prix Final into their decision of whether he gets to make the Olympic team.
    You are right. Johnny has been on good behavior this season and we all know why.

    If he medals at US Natls he will go to Vancouver. If he doesn't he will not.

    He has been skating better and since it is his last season I wish him good luck.
    If meltdowns occur in Vancouver Johnny could possibly medal with a great skate.

    I see nothing wrong with Rippon, Mroz and other youngsters waiting their turn so to speak.

    And Jeremy may be the one who is left home if he skates poorly at Natls..

  13. #178
    End subjectivity,reduce PCS, fix the COP! schiele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Thanks for your comments Evangeline. Something is happening to me as I find myself agreeing with you twice in the same week

    People are not looking at Evan right and strange as it seems they are judging him like a 6.0 skater. I believe Johnny would find it much easier to beat Evan under 6.0 than CoP.

    Evan is just doing what Plushy did back in '06. He is milking the CoP system for all it is worth accentuating his strengths and successfully keeping his weaknesses below the surface.

    I thought he skated exceptionally well and deserved to win. I don't think Evan would win as much under the old system when it was fair for a judge to say, "I like the other skater better." Today they have to award points for elements and the way they are executed. I don't like Evan's steps but it is easy to see he is not skating for me but for the judges. His steps are CoP steps and they score well. So do his spins and his exceptional energy and commanding ice presense.

    Evan is the type of skater who is rewarded by CoP scoring .
    I agree with you it is silly to take anger out on Evan when it is the system and judges that are rewarding Evan. It wouldn't hurt if quite a few (maybe all) of the other guys considered training as hard as Evan does - to actually train like they are athletes at a sporting event and not skaters in pretty costumes.
    Well, I will for once agree with you. My anger towards the result is not specifically for Evan per se but for the way the system is now clearly abused. And it would be too simplistic to say its the judges cos after all, if the judges have the tools to judge poorly, then it is the system that is at fault.
    Over the years I have defended and defended this system to many ppl but with this GPF, I am officially giving up. I flared up specifically here cos Evan won with his PSC (his total TES was 2nd behind Oda) and Oda lost beacuse of his PCS. I simply cannot accept a system where criteria, whose objectivity is questioned, can determine the outcome. So far, I was lenient on the system cos the overall placements usually seemed fair but I'm more and more seeing that it is clearly not going into the right direction. I am actually going to jump the shark and say that under 6.0, the artistic judging was actually better than this system.
    So for me the solution is simple. Enhance the sportive aspects, reduce the subjectivity, even if it means also penalizing some skaters I strongly favour. For example, going back to the 6.0 system for artistic marks and reducing the weight of PCS by at least 50% would help. After all, the TES scores' history is much less questionable from what we've seen, even with the GOEs.
    And I dont think this is anything to do with EUro vs Asia vs America. Neither has it anything to do with Evan or anyone else. Was it not for such abnormal inflation, I could go on disliking Evan and his style but not going on a hatred spree for him. I guess same goes for some ppl with Joubert or Plushy.
    So after this point, I am officially giving up defending and I am going to the other side (I seem to be full of Star Wars quotes these days..)

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Is it CoP that is inherently flawed.....or are the judges using CoP (especially PCS) in a flawed way?
    I believe the CoP is relying on the 6.0 System in many cases. The whole gist of awarding Plus GoEs in the Tech is totally based on just opinions. They are not quantitative except for summing up the results of the opinions . The PC scores are much worse. They are rushed judgements to get at the final scores. These bullets within the five sections of the scoring system are not judged individually but one or two can justify the given score - not all of the bullets need to be addressed. These PC scores are at least 50% just opinions, imo - maybe more.
    If one questioned a score, the one bullet would justify any negative mark.

    I'm not against judges' opinions as I do not know of any other method to evaluate this part of the result. Just something to live with.

    But Evangeline, you too, have a right to opinions. There's no school that teaches better opinions.

  15. #180
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Is it CoP that is inherently flawed.....or are the judges using CoP (especially PCS) in a flawed way?
    Probably both. But human nature can't be changed, so what's more critical is optimizing a system.

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