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Thread: Grand Prix Final: Mens LP

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennylovskt View Post
    Here is the result from GPF FS:

    1 Evan LYSACEK 159.60 75.60 84.00 8.40 8.10 8.50 8.55 8.45 0.00 #5
    2 Jeremy ABBOTT 158.73 82.13 77.60 7.75 7.60 7.75 7.65 8.05 1.00 #2

    Please help me out. It seems to me that Evan is milking it for every possible point. The maximum he milked was TES 75.60. But Jeremy got TES 82.13. How did Evan milk it for PCS 84.00?

    I agree. Evan didn't necessarily milk the system at this event; it looks more like he was the beneficiary of reputation scoring (I realize that this is NOT Evan's fault, and he is NOT the only one to benefit from such). But I sincerely doubt that he would have received such generous PCS if he wasn't a) the reigning world champion and b) the #1 American man.

    Before we all decry CoP....it's not like everything was rosy under 6.0 either. For example--I never quite understood how Tim Goebel got the Presentation scores he did. For a more specific example, poor Sasha Abt at 2002 Euros was totally robbed in the Presentation scores by a clearly flawed and underperforming Yagudin despite the fact that Sasha was absolutely amazing in the LP and (rightfully) won the Technical score--but no way were the judges going to give the gold to the #3 Russian with no major titles to the multi-World Champion #1 Russian.

    To me, this tells me that the PCS are used like the Presentation scores under 6.0--those handy scores that can prop up a favourite, as placeholders. But the question is, can this ever be changed under any system? Can we ever eliminate that element of favouritism (or reputation scoring), especially in a clearly subjective sport like figure skating?

    CoP has its flaws, certainly, but I don't think it has destroyed artistry or increased reputation scoring any more than 6.0 did. In 6.0, after all--if you could jump and you were an established name, that would pretty much ensure you presentation marks in the high 5s no matter what you put on the ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Sometimes as fans we have to look at our favorites' scores and admit that much as we enjoy their skating, much as we think they're great, that was excessive. This was excessive. Period. It has nothing to do with Evan's work ethic or with his commitment to skating. It's not a reflection on his character.
    I mean, I love Yagudin but he should NOT have won the 2002 Euros. And his "One Banana" EX is STILL absolute crap, no matter how wonderful his other programs were
    Last edited by evangeline; 12-07-2009 at 01:38 AM.

  2. #257
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I love Yagudin but he should NOT have won the 2002 Euros.
    Absolutely true. Sasha Abt was so amazing that year.
    And his "One Banana" EX is STILL absolute crap, no matter how wonderful his other programs were
    That never happened. It's only a figment of Mishin's imagination.

    ETA: your post in the ten things thread is excellent!
    Last edited by Buttercup; 12-07-2009 at 02:17 AM.

  3. #258
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    To me, this tells me that the PCS are used like the Presentation scores under 6.0--those handy scores that can prop up a favourite, as placeholders. But the question is, can this ever be changed under any system?
    no, because it's subjective. it's why we don't all fall over the same skaters and worship the ice they skate on... I find Evan to be an amazing performer and skater... I liked his Carmen program, and for the most part his Tosca... others can't stand a single thing he's ever skated saying he has no presentation quality whatsoever. To each their own.

    until we get rid of teh second mark, you're going to see reputation scoring playing a factor...

    actually as longas there are human judges and such you're going to have outside influences totally unrelated to the rules of judging as a factor.


    Scores are always inflated in an Olympic year anyway, in both scoring systems... so I wouldn't worry TOO much about it here.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 12-07-2009 at 02:22 AM.

  4. #259
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    I think Evan's PCS were inflated and I love Evan. But you could argue the same for S/Z, D/W, V/M, Kim in some events etc. IMO the judges are just going crazy when marking the winner. I think that's wrong, doesn't diminish the skating of these people, though.

    And these things are very subjective. For example, I appreciate what Kozuka and Abbott are doing, but they seem so restrained and focused inward to me that their skating seems "small" and inconsequential IMO. So I would argue that Lysacek, Joubert, Plushy etc. deserve at least equal marks to those people because they perform so much better than them that it should even out what they lose in Transition marks etc. I know that I don't make myself very popular with these statements here, sorry.

  5. #260
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Oh merrybari dont you know it is always the winner of the event that gets the most critisism? the silver medalist could have messed big time with a big splattfest, but the gold is screened under the zoom tool...I think none was picking on Evan though as Evan, I m the first to say dont adress the skaters, but the judges. Dont worry
    I liked Evans Carmen a lot by the way, but that was 4 years ago. I liked his style back then a lot better, he was more light and original and less .. I dont know the word..
    janetfan I dont think Plushenko should get high marks for transitions either but if you take a look he got 6.95 for it and transitions is one branch of pcs. Of course maybe he deserved 1.95. While you say Plush is only arm flapping and crossovers, mediocre everything but the jumps, I could have said the same for Evan (but I wouldnt anyway cause i dont believe it) and you would post about Evan bashers drinking lemon. I m lost sometimes here for double standars.
    I think none post bashed Evan as a person neither a skater, same things have been said hunderndth times for many skaters, especially the winners of the events.
    Last edited by seniorita; 12-07-2009 at 04:56 AM.

  6. #261
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katha View Post
    I think Evan's PCS were inflated and I love Evan. But you could argue the same for S/Z, D/W, V/M, Kim in some events etc. IMO the judges are just going crazy when marking the winner. I think that's wrong, doesn't diminish the skating of these people, though.

    And these things are very subjective. For example, I appreciate what Kozuka and Abbott are doing, but they seem so restrained and focused inward to me that their skating seems "small" and inconsequential IMO. So I would argue that Lysacek, Joubert, Plushy etc. deserve at least equal marks to those people because they perform so much better than them that it should even out what they lose in Transition marks etc. I know that I don't make myself very popular with these statements here, sorry.
    I feel that abott gives small impression for his skating and jumps not so big, either.

  7. #262
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    CoP was created to make the scoring system better and not just different.

    Reputation scoring - has it gotten better? I believe it is still a major problem that CoP has failed to improve.

    Artistic marking - has it gotten better? I believe the CoP system itself is at fault here as quantity and similarity are rewarded over quality and originality.

    Originality has been suppressed by the requirements and levels assigned to the various elements. Do skaters and choreographers have any choice about how to create their programs - or are they forced to perform elements in a similar manner hoping to score the most points?

    Sometimes fans complain that Evan looks exactly the same from year to year.
    Guess what fans - so does Joubert look exactly the same and Plushy looked so similar to Torino it is hard to believe he was away for three years.

    Is there any good reason someone can suggest for Plushy to approach Vancouver with a totally new look or style? Are Mischin and Plushy dumb enough to abandon a CoP friendly style of skating that won him the OGM in '06?

    I was never a big Johnny fan but CoP has really hurt him. He used to be different but even Johnny admitted he had to go to Wilson and try and skate like everybody else if he was going to have a chance this season.

    The great Lambiel has said the same thing and has openly mocked CoP scoring. Why would Stephane do that? Is he a bad person or too stupid to understand the benefits of CoP?

    He is a very artistic and very original skater and he resents that he must do what the others are doing to have a chance. He recently commented about adding arm movements when it didn't fit the music let alone the mood he was trying to convey. But even a skater as great as Lambiel has no choice but to skate for the points and do what the others are doing if he wants to give himself a chance to win. What a shame for Lambiel and how strange the philosophy of CoP feels to me.

  8. #263
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    .

    I was never a big Johnny fan but CoP has really hurt him. He used to be different but even Johnny admitted he had to go to Wilson and try and skate like everybody else if he was going to have a chance this season.

    The great Lambiel has said the same thing and has openly mocked CoP scoring. Why would Stephane do that? Is he a bad person or too stupid to understand the benefits of CoP?

    He is a very artistic and very original skater and he resents that he must do what the others are doing to have a chance. He recently commented about adding arm movemen ts when it didn't fit the music let alone the mood he was trying to convey. But even a skater as great as Lambiel has no choice but to skate for the points and do what the others are doing if he wants to give himself a chance to win. What a shame for Lambiel and how strange the philosophy of CoP feels to me.
    janet - we can only hope that some day,they will bring back theFREE SKATE and leave the super tricks for the Short Program.

  9. #264
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    I don't like CoP, and I don't like 6.0 either.

    I am wondering how come CoP is suddenly at the greatest fault when we talk about Evan's undeserving PCS? So we cannot talk about Evan?! I think to accuse Plushenko too pale to look even alive is an absolute, unskating related, hateful personal attack and bashing. I don't see anything close to this kind of trash talk about Evan here.

  10. #265
    End subjectivity,reduce PCS, fix the COP! schiele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennylovskt View Post
    I don't like CoP, and I don't like 6.0 either.

    I am wondering how come CoP is suddenly at the greatest fault when we talk about Evan's undeserving PCS? So we cannot talk about Evan?! I think to accuse Plushenko too pale to look even alive is an absolute, unskating related, hateful personal attack and bashing. I don't see anything close to this kind of trash talk about Evan here.
    Well to be fair, we do make fun of his costumes and sometimes his hair..
    Although I guess Evan does not really get more than others like Joubert, Plushenko, Euro girls etc..
    I think COP is at the bottom of most discussions, I guess the score inflation just made the faults too difficult to ignore all of a sudden.

  11. #266
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Sometimes fans complain that Evan looks exactly the same from year to year.
    Guess what fans - so does Joubert look exactly the same and Plushy looked so similar to Torino it is hard to believe he was away for three years.
    in the case of Joubert and Plushenko - they looked the same year in and year out during the 6.0 system, too. Joubert just took the same formula that Yags had and tried to use it for himself.

    Evan's not doing anything wrong by it, and it's NOT just something we see in the CoP... Scott Hamilton used the same basic layouts for his programs in the 80s and just changed parts of his music and the costumes... certainly not the creativity we'd see later in his professional programs (thank you Sarah K!)

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennylovskt View Post
    I don't like CoP, and I don't like 6.0 either.

    I am wondering how come CoP is suddenly at the greatest fault when we talk about Evan's undeserving PCS? So we cannot talk about Evan?! I think to accuse Plushenko too pale to look even alive is an absolute, unskating related, hateful personal attack and bashing. I don't see anything close to this kind of trash talk about Evan here.
    When I call Plushy the "Siberian Mullet Boy" and put this - - next to my comment I am obviously kidding. I have also praised and defended Plushy many times.

    When another poster says they "will never watch skating again if Evan medals" and says they "hate his skating" and "can't stand him" it feels a little different.

    Or do you disagree with that as well?

    And if I called Plushy the "Siberian Zombie Boy" because he is rather pale compared to Evan that would also be a joke.

    I laugh and make fun of Evan's tan and I never heard you complain before. You have very selective criticisms.

    When you don't mention I used a "smilie" or was kidding - then you are misrepresenting my post and quoting me out of context.

    Anyone knows it if they read the thread I am kidding.
    So please, a little more honesty OK?
    Last edited by janetfan; 12-07-2009 at 12:22 PM.

  13. #268
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Who said Plushy is pale? When you see him live he is like sunflower on ice and clear bright as a diamond, he is just too much to watch. Shining gold from head to toe. And he has shiny blue eyes to match his shiny mullet.

    Voila, that was my uber moment of the day too much shiny, I m so poetic.

    I have missed medusa on this thread

  14. #269
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Who said Plushy is pale? When you see him live he is like sunflower on ice and clear bright as a diamond, he is just too much to watch. Shining gold from head to toe. And he has shiny blue eyes to match his shiny mullet.


    But seriously! jennylovskt About as honest as anyone gets.

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Who said Plushy is pale? When you see him live he is like sunflower on ice and clear bright as a diamond, he is just too much to watch. Shining gold from head to toe. And he has shiny blue eyes to match his shiny mullet.

    Voila, that was my uber moment of the day too much shiny, I m so poetic.

    I have missed medusa on this thread
    Pale, ghostly, translucent, and yes, I agree, there is something very shiny about Plushy. A very cheap shiny polyester fabric comes to mind.

    Now if you mentioned his shiny OGM I would agree with you.

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