Classical music that I'm surprised hasn't been used for skating?

Olympia said:

What really matters, as you point out, is the understanding of the rhythm and the beat, as well as the skater's ability to convey an emotional connection with the music--which could be a connection entirely different from the one implied by the original storyline. I mean, really--if someone skates to the majestic sound track from Jurassic Park, must she be portraying a dinosaur?

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:thumbsup: Good point. Maybe that's why I can't recall any female skaters using the soundtrack of Jurassic park.

It's a pity skater's rarely deviate from the original storyline of the music. I think one of the reason that happens is because they want the audience to 'get' what their trying to portray. B/A's Tosca routine, for instance, seemed to follow the storyline of the opera very closely, up till the suicide scene.

Actually, Tonya Harding's last LP (at the 1994 Olympics) was to Jurassic Park. At this point in time, I doubt anyone would immediately recognize the music, and there's no reason it shouldn't be used for skating.

I expect that in the day, though, it was the connection with Tonya, as much as with dinosaurs, that kept skaters from using it.

After all, you need not be a velociraptor--you could be a park visitor running from the dinosaurs, if you felt you just had to act out the movie.

One of the PCS performance criteria in dance is that your choreography be immediately understandable. You can interpret your music as you wish, but the judges will have set methods of evaluating this criteria. That would be one reason for a team to choose to use the choreo that would tie into the movie/opera/story that the music was originally used with.

An example of problems would be Crone/Poirier's use of Bohemian Rhapsody to tell the story of Orpheus and Eurydice this year. Since not everyone even knows the story, and since nobody automatically connects the story to Bohemian Rhapsody without being told, it makes it just that much harder to make the choreo immediately understandable. If that is the story they wanted to tell, it would be much easier to get the story across by skating to Orpheus in the Underworld, for example, which is what most teams would do.

^That's interesting. I never knew that about the dance PCS. Maybe that's why there's a lot more 'the story we're trying to tell is...' in articles about ice dancers and their programmes.

I liked C/P's FD very much. The story is indeed hard to 'get' by watching the program alone. Does that mean no clear story in FD= lower PCS scores?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgub-BaTQvs
Beethoven's tempest.

Btw I liked Tonya's Jurrasic Park! Her performance at the nationals was quite good.

There's lots of great Borodin music other than Polovstian Dances. I'd love to see someone skate to the music from the "Prince Igor" overture, or from any of Borodin's symphonies.

I also love Wagner's music and would like to see more skaters choosing it. Sale/Pelletier were far from my favorite Pairs team, but their "Tristan and Isolde" FS was wonderful.

Chuckm, you said the magic word, Borodin! Russian music is so melodically rich and full of great rhythms, and Borodin is a treasure trove. Years and years ago, a Canadian ice dance couple, Barbara Berezowski and David Porter, had a program set to the slow movement of Borodin's Second String Quartet (in many people's opinion, the most beautiful piece of chamber music ever to come out of Russia). Another lovely Borodin work is his Second Symphony. And I completely agree about the overture to Prince Igor. Another Russian composer who drew from the same well as Borodin (folk-based melodies and themes, glittering orchestration) was Alexander Glazunov, a student of Borodin's colleague Rimsky-Korsakov. Lots of potential there--and he even wrote some ballet music!

Wagner might be a bit tougher (though I love him), because his music is less "springy" (in the sense of having quickness of motion in its tempo). Wagner is so monumental that I can barely imagine people walking to it, let alone skating. Though Tristan is an exception. I'd love to see a pair skate to the original orchestration of its Liebestod ("love-death"--one of the most torrid pieces ever written!). Here's a thought: maybe someone could skate to an orchestral version of the Prize Song from Die Meistersinger.

And Doris, Tonya Harding was exactly who I was thinking about when I mentioned Jurassic Park. I remember seeing that routine (before we realized her connection to the attack on Kerrigan, when we still respected her), and I was wowed by how well she conveyed the sense of melodic purposefulness of the music. Her muscular style was perfectly suited to this majestic music, and it created an impression that had nothing to do with prehistoric reptiles or deathly attacks (little did we know!). Her performance exactly illustrates the point I was trying to make, that programmatic music need not be taken literally. An example of that this year is Suzuki's skate to West Side Story. She's certainly not portraying Maria or Anita from the musical. She's just bringing the dance rhythms to joyful life.

If there's some requirement for judges to understand a skater's underlying storyline, can't the skater put out an explanation of what's going on? I have any number of recollections of TV announcers telling us what the individual or the couple mean to convey. The Russians excel at providing a "plotline" for their skate.

Olympia said:

Chuckm, you said the magic word, Borodin! Russian music is so melodically rich and full of great rhythms, and Borodin is a treasure trove. Years and years ago, a Canadian ice dance couple, Barbara Berezowski and David Porter, had a program set to the slow movement of Borodin's Second String Quartet (in many people's opinion, the most beautiful piece of chamber music ever to come out of Russia). Another lovely Borodin work is his Second Symphony. And I completely agree about the overture to Prince Igor. Another Russian composer who drew from the same well as Borodin (folk-based melodies and themes, glittering orchestration) was Alexander Glazunov, a student of Borodin's colleague Rimsky-Korsakov. Lots of potential there--and he even wrote some ballet music!

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Borodin was primarily a medical doctor/chemist, and writing music was a sideline for him. He was close friends with both Glazounov and Rimsky-Korsakov, and they actually orchestrated much of Borodin's music after his death.

chuckm said:

Borodin was primarily a medical doctor/chemist, and writing music was a sideline for him. He was close friends with both Glazounov and Rimsky-Korsakov, and they actually orchestrated much of Borodin's music after his death.

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Yeah, isn't it an amazing story? Borodin's career as a chemist gave him international recognition--I think his textbook was used for years--and yet he was one of Russia's greatest composers as well. I read that he and Rimsky-Korsakov studied all the different instruments together, seeing what each one could do, which is one reason their orchestration was so richly textured. I love that Rimsky-Korsakov and Glazunov went to such lengths to prepare Prince Igor for performance after Borodin died. That's friendship!

While we're on the subject of Rimsky-Korsakov, the orchestral "Sea Scenes" from his opera Sadko would be great for skating to; it's got a great fast but fluid tempo. I can't find it on YouTube, alas. But I've thought about it as a skating piece for years. Here's the closest I can get to it: a segment of the opera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZZXc0JzvDY

I know it's not a classic piece but I would LOVE to see someone skate to "Hymnsong on Phillip Bliss" which is a modern composer's take on "It Is Well With My Soul"

quite possibly one of my favorite pieces of all time.

Olympia said:

That's an excellent point, Joesitz! I don't think that a skater is obligated to use the plot and/or character that a piece of music originally depicted. Why should Carmen be about an amoral temptress? Why does Scheherezade have to portray a young woman who might be put to death the next morning by the man she's just married? I think the music could suggest other things entirely, and the skater shouldn't be penalized for that. What really matters, as you point out, is the understanding of the rhythm and the beat, as well as the skater's ability to convey an emotional connection with the music--which cn'tould be a connection entirely different from the one implied by the original storyline. I mean, really--if someone skates to the majestic sound track from Jurassic Park, must be portraying a dinosaur?

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t
:cl ap:
For all the hullabaoo about what so and so will use for music, the CoP in its 5 part guidelines for the PC scores, puts music in one of the parts and under interpretation. It doesn't seem to acknowledge that it is music that separates it from bobsledding.

btw, I am a big fan of serious music How about those young kids skating and interpreting the music of Wagner and Mahler? Doubt they could. Best they stick with lighter fare interpreting the rhythms and not the storyline.

Remember Gordeyeva skating her elegy to Sergei to the Adagietto to Mahler's Fifth Symphony? I still get gooseflesh thinking of it.

One of the problems when all the skaters are sixteen and a half is that they are rarely capable of getting into the bones of such music. (Exceptions come to mind, of course!) I think that's why we love Shen and Zhao so much. I'm almost pathetically happy to have them back in competition.

Olympia said:

Remember Gordeyeva skating her elegy to Sergei to the Adagietto to Mahler's Fifth Symphony? I still get gooseflesh thinking of it.

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I think that is THEE best use of music, choreography, skating, lighting, emotion....just perfect. I can't watch it for 5 seconds without bursting into tears.

Tinymavy15 said:

I think that is THEE best use of music, choreography, skating, lighting, emotion....just perfect. I can't watch it for 5 seconds without bursting into tears.

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It's moments like this that show what skating really is capable of. The ability to create something astonishing with technique and music is what I look for in skating. The rest of the sport is fun, or interesting, or even admirable, but this is what I follow the sport for. Every rare moment of this sort is worth the wait.

Olympia said:

Remember Gordeyeva skating her elegy to Sergei to the Adagietto to Mahler's Fifth Symphony? I still get gooseflesh thinking of it.

One of the probls when all the skaters are sixteen and a half is that they are rarely capable of getting into the bones of such music. (Exceptions come to mind, of course!) I think that's why we love Shen and Zao so much. I'm almost pathetically happy to have them back in competition.

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Gordeyeva had excperienced life by that time. She (and Sergie) were special performers even beforeso.

It's true, the teenies should not, and should not attempt to skate to mature music.

Katia had indeed experienced life in the most distressing and intense way. She also had been trained in the technique she needed in order to convey that experience. And she had the expressive soul that allowed her to articulate her experience, both in skating and in speech. Which is all to say, Joesitz, that I agree with you that she and Sergei were special performers before the tragedy occurred.

The rarity of such a special performer is what makes really good skating so hard to find. But, like true diamonds, those performers are worth waiting for, aren't they?

Olympia said:

It's moments like this that show what skating really is capable of. The ability to create something astonishing with technique and music is what I look for in skating. The rest of the sport is fun, or interesting, or even admirable, but this is what I follow the sport for. Every rare moment of this sort is worth the wait.

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I am sure many others feel the same way. :yes:

I wonder if a certain former speedskater connects or even understands your point and the reason why you love skating so much?

Even Mishin, considered a technical genius, has expressed similar thoughts and has said you can't judge those special moments, the emotional impact of a program with points.

Like many who have been involved in skating for a long time he knows what it is that truly sets apart certain skaters and performances from the others.

It is not found in any set of rules and it can never be properly rewarded by points.

How can it be properly rewarded in an athletic competition? Or even an artistic one?

ImaginaryPogue said:

How can it be properly rewarded in an athletic competition? Or even an artistic one?

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It depends on what you consider "proper"

For instance many think Akiko won the LP at the GPF. The people in the arena thought she won. Cop judges said no.

It is interesting that the people in the arena at '08 Worlds thought Yukari won the LP.

People in the arena may not be judges but they are not blind and many are more than just casual skating fans.

Yukari in '08 did what Akiko did at the GPF. She skated with a lot of heart and emotion and brought the audience a special moment. They both created a piece of performance art. This is the legacy begun by Janet and passed onto Michelle.

I don't think ISU wants the sport to be about moments like that. I think they want something different. I think Speedy is succeeding, and he has convinced you and many others that this newer and more mechanical style of skating is better.

As a long time fan I disagree. It is why I enjoyed Akiko so much at the GPF and not the others.

this long time fan enjoys a more lights out skate, but also appreciates the CoP

and it getting really tired of being talked down to because I'm somehow less of a fan because of my stance...

this is just a generalization, it just gets old after a while that youth has something to do with it. I grew up watching 6.0 skaters the same as most of the long time fans did... it doesn't make my opinion less valid just because I didn't "skate with the dinosaurs"

Tonichelle, I tend to agree. It comes off as condescending cronyism and renders debate irrelevant.