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Thread: Answers for Johnny

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    Answers for Johnny

    Johnny wondered aloud during the Grand Prix Finals telecast what it would take to defeat Evan Lysacek, the reigning World Champion…I would also add Yevgeny Plushenko, the reigning Olympic Champion (and everyone else for that matter). Answer…play the CoP game (collecting points) better than everyone else.

    He could go a long way toward a victory at Nationals by adding another triple jump (triple toe on the end of both the axel and lutz instead of just one) and another jump combination (add a double toe, double loop to the end of his last double axel) for a total of 9 triples and three combinations (right now he is leaving out a triple and a combination).

    Building on that further, he could greatly increase his chances for an Olympic victory by adding a quad to his 9 triples and 3 combinations.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by layman View Post
    Johnny wondered aloud during the Grand Prix Finals telecast what it would take to defeat Evan Lysacek, the reigning World Champion…I would also add Yevgeny Plushenko, the reigning Olympic Champion (and everyone else for that matter). Answer…play the CoP game (collecting points) better than everyone else.

    He could go a long way toward a victory at Nationals by adding another triple jump (triple toe on the end of both the axel and lutz instead of just one) and another jump combination (add a double toe, double loop to the end of his last double axel) for a total of 9 triples and three combinations (right now he is leaving out a triple and a combination).

    Building on that further, he could greatly increase his chances for an Olympic victory by adding a quad to his 9 triples and 3 combinations.
    Those are all good points but I wonder if Johnny can add the jumps you suggest? He seems to have stamina problems at times but I am sure he is pacing himslef for Natls and a hopeful ticket to Vancouver.

    Johnny seems to have lost something and I don't mean his jumps.
    He used to be different and his programs were once more original.

    I suspect Johnny is a victim of CoP scoring and his strength in the past was creative and different looking programs. He went to Wilson to try and be more CoP friendly and in doing so he looks more like the others.

    I don't think he can beat some of the top skaters on technical merit and it was his artistry that used to set him apart. That appears to be less of a factor as he is trying to skate more for points this season and less to create a special mood on the ice.

    I think he has a chance but needs meltdowns from several top skaters to have a chance in Vancouver. And a few more jumps wouldn't hurt either

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by layman View Post
    Johnny wondered aloud during the Grand Prix Finals telecast what it would take to defeat Evan Lysacek, the reigning World Champion…I would also add Yevgeny Plushenko, the reigning Olympic Champion (and everyone else for that matter). Answer…play the CoP game (collecting points) better than everyone else.

    He could go a long way toward a victory at Nationals by adding another triple jump (triple toe on the end of both the axel and lutz instead of just one) and another jump combination (add a double toe, double loop to the end of his last double axel) for a total of 9 triples and three combinations (right now he is leaving out a triple and a combination).

    Building on that further, he could greatly increase his chances for an Olympic victory by adding a quad to his 9 triples and 3 combinations.
    You can't do nine triples. There are six different types of triple and you can only repeat two (in combination) so the most any skater with a full set of triples can do is 8 triples.

    Johnny at the GPF did exactly what he needed to jumpwise (with the exception of doing 2T+2Lp on another of his triples for an extra maybe 2.5 or so points) he repeated his two hardest (and therefore highest scoring) triples - the axel and lutz.

    If he wants more points then he needs to look at the GOE requirement and think about sticking his arm in the air for maybe the 2T on the back of the 3A and other GOE checklist things.

    Ant

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    You can't do nine triples. There are six different types of triple and you can only repeat two (in combination) so the most any skater with a full set of triples can do is 8 triples.

    Johnny at the GPF did exactly what he needed to jumpwise (with the exception of doing 2T+2Lp on another of his triples for an extra maybe 2.5 or so points) he repeated his two hardest (and therefore highest scoring) triples - the axel and lutz.

    If he wants more points then he needs to look at the GOE requirement and think about sticking his arm in the air for maybe the 2T on the back of the 3A and other GOE checklist things.

    Ant
    That makes sense...so he maybe needs to add another combo for Nationals and a quad or two for the Olympics.

    Going into the Olympics without the maximum jump content is like Michelle Kwan's 1998 and 2002 strategy...Tara and Sarah had it sewn up before the contest started.
    Last edited by layman; 12-07-2009 at 10:20 AM.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by layman View Post
    That makes sense...so he maybe needs to add another combo for Nationals and a quad or two for the Olympics.
    If it was as easy to add a quad or two as it is to type that someone should, don't you think more skaters would do it

    Quote Originally Posted by layman View Post
    Going into the Olympics without the maximum jump content is like Michelle Kwan's 1998 and 2002 strategy...Tara and Sarah had it sewn up before the contest started.
    I disagree completely. Michele did go in planning the maximum jump content she could. In 1998 she had a stress fracture in her foot, preventing her from going for the 3T/3T. In fact it forced her to repeat the harder loop rather than having the two toe-loops.

    In 2002 it had nothing to do with planned jump content and everything to do with the fact she (and Irina and Sasha therefore allowing the flip flop) made mistakes - she two footed the toe-loop and couldn't put the second triple on the end of it and fell on the triple flip. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Ant

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    If it was as easy to add a quad or two as it is to type that someone should, don't you think more skaters would do it

    Ant
    Well...I think Peter Carruthers and Scott Hamilton were correct in urging Johnny to do more (during their commentary). They both said he's capable of it. I agree.

    I just hope that Johnny and his team realize that his current jump content is not enough to win.

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    I'd like to see him work to increase his PCS by adding more complex transitions, choosing music with more variety of highs and lows and showing more variety and contrast in his interpretation of said music, and skating with more attack and projection.

    He can match Lysacek on TES just by skating clean with the elements he has planned.

    I think the differences in PCS are because Plushenko and Lysacek when he's on really command the ice and demand the audience's attention. Weir is much more internal in his presentation. When he's on and intense in his internal focus, it can be mesmerizing, but not as dynamic. That can work well for a short program, but it's hard to hold attention without more contrasts for the length of a long program.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I'd like to see him work to increase his PCS by adding more complex transitions, choosing music with more variety of highs and lows and showing more variety and contrast in his interpretation of said music, and skating with more attack and projection.

    He can match Lysacek on TES just by skating clean with the elements he has planned.

    I think the differences in PCS are because Plushenko and Lysacek when he's on really command the ice and demand the audience's attention. Weir is much more internal in his presentation. When he's on and intense in his internal focus, it can be mesmerizing, but not as dynamic. That can work well for a short program, but it's hard to hold attention without more contrasts for the length of a long program.
    I agree...

    and as far as Nationals... he has to hope Evan gets stuck in teh bathroom, or finally crumbles... I don't see the USFSA giving it to another guy in a close contest... only if Evan just simply doesn't skate it like he has since 2006. (yes I know Johnny won in 2006... but Evan skated pretty much lights out then too, if not for that dang fall in the SP on the footwork)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I'd like to see him work to increase his PCS by adding more complex transitions, choosing music with more variety of highs and lows and showing more variety and contrast in his interpretation of said music, and skating with more attack and projection.
    I think these are right and approachable changes that he could adapt easily, plus what Ant suggested, they could effectively raise his total scores. But he can only work on them in the music he has chosen for this season. The next step is to add a quad in LP which I don't think he should go for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    and as far as Nationals... he has to hope Evan gets stuck in teh bathroom, or finally crumbles... I don't see the USFSA giving it to another guy in a close contest...
    Not even the reigning National Champion.
    Last edited by jennylovskt; 12-07-2009 at 11:23 AM.

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    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    I hope he doesn't try to add a quad at this point!

    I didn't think Carruthers and Hamilton meant he needed to add more jump content but to land the ones he already has, and in the right place, so he can focus on other elements later. (OK, I admit they didn't actually articulate that...)

    Johnny DID beat Evan in TES in the Free at the GPF! He won't be allowed to do that at Nationals unless Evan crashes, but apparently the international judges are OK with it. I would think that is a huge confidence-booster for Johnny.

    I was also delighted that he stuck in extra jumps to make up for the 2nd ones he missed. He didn't use to be able to do that (Galina: )

    The biggest weaknesses I saw in his FP were:

    * slow spins
    * choreography not complex or original enough compared to some others
    * and as gkelly said, change the New Age music to something with emotion and a climax. That's not going to happen now, and it shouldn't.

    So that leaves him the first two options. He's got to add some speed and fireworks. He needs a few WOW moments - and not just WOW--beautiful, but WOW--who can do that sh&*?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Johnny DID beat Evan in TES in the Free at the GPF! He won't be allowed to do that at Nationals unless Evan crashes, but apparently the international judges are OK with it.
    Oh, Evan does need to crash to end up with lower TES. Underrotating or popping a couple of jumps could do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    I hope he doesn't try to add a quad at this point!


    The biggest weaknesses I saw in his FP were:

    * slow spins
    * choreography not complex or original enough compared to some others
    * and as gkelly said, change the New Age music to something with emotion and a climax. That's not going to happen now, and it shouldn't.
    Slow spins and simple choreography have not hindered Plushenko at all. I still think Johnny needs more jump content to be competitive with him.

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    Figure Skating Is A Dangerous Sport Dee4707's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    So that leaves him the first two options. He's got to add some speed and fireworks. He needs a few WOW moments - and not just WOW--beautiful, but WOW--who can do that sh&*?
    I agree Spun, I think his music this season has the highs & lows but Johnny needs to work it.

    I just wished he used Otonal in an Olympic year.

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    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee4707 View Post
    I agree Spun, I think his music this season has the highs & lows but Johnny needs to work it.
    Well, I hope you're right, Dee - that's his only choice! If the highs and lows aren't there he'll have to make us believe they are!

    I miss Otonal too but I'm staying hopeful. He's already made this program a lot better than it started out, and the SP too. Now, just a few fireworks. That's not too much to ask, is it?

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    I agree...

    and as far as Nationals... he has to hope Evan gets stuck in teh bathroom, or finally crumbles..
    :chorus:

    That is true. But I don't think Johnny should change much for nationals. He should concentrate on doing his current programs the best he can. If he does that, he has an excellent shot of getting on the team. His biggest competition aside from Evan is Abbott. Mroz and Bradley are much more long shots for team than Johnny if you ask me. Given last year, I think Johnny really needs to feel good about that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by layman View Post
    Slow spins and simple choreography have not hindered Plushenko at all. I still think Johnny needs more jump content to be competitive with him.
    No, slow spins and simple choreography don't hurt Plushenko. But fast spins and complex choreography DO help skaters like Evan have a prayer of competing against the likes of Plushenko ... and certainly against Joubert. So it would help Johnny, too. And it might be easier for Johnny to work on those things than adding a whole bunch of jumps during the last stretch of the season.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 12-07-2009 at 10:46 PM. Reason: please use the multiquote/edit feature(s), thanks :)

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