Yuna Kim | Page 104 | Golden Skate

Yuna Kim

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
And Miki Ando. Her 3-3 sometimes gets downgraded but not always. And my point is that Yuna can do a 3lo and Miki can do a 3f, so if they want to do their big tricks, they should just suck it up and put the problem jump in their programs. For both skaters, I think the block is mental more than anything else. Also I think Yuna gets too much credit for being a great jumper, she's got a killer 3lutz and 2a, and 3t when done in combination, but she doesn't even do the 3t on its own, her salchow is not great, she lips her flip, and she hasn't attempted the loop in competition in years. So she's REALLY good at 2 kinds of jumps, maybe 3 depending on how you view the 3toe, but then the rest of her jumps are just ok. And I sort of feel the same about Miki, who's good at 3lz, 3lo, 3s but then only ok at 2a, 3t and doesn't do 3f anymore.

But the main point of my post is that they make these decisions, and in the case of Yuna, I don't get why she didn't replace one of her salchows with a toeloop, which again addresses the question: how come Yuna can do a killer 3t on the back end of a combination but never attempts it on its own? A smarter option IMO, if she really is that against doing a 3lo, would have been to keep her layout the same as last season but replaced the last 2a with a 2lz or something. Also I think Miki's 3s-3lo would be more likely to get ratified than her 3lz-3lo, which could be something to consider in future programs.

And now, I feel like your stripping Yu-na of two much credit. It wasn't until 2008 that her flip started getting the ocassional e call but that debatable fact not-withstanding, her flip has best consistently praised for its height, speed, and ice coverage, lip or not. I'd say when she nails the flip for example at 2010 Olympics, 2009 Worlds, etc, it's an absolute beauty. She doesn't do a 3loop... but then again, look at the rest of the field (because remember, FS is relative to a degree); who is doing all 5 triples consistently in their programs? Please stop making Yu-na out to be an exception. And 1). Why must she do a solo triple toe when it garners more points for her to do it in combo (please stop drawing extraneous conclusions w/out evidence supporting your claim) and 2). at least her technique on the salchow is clean. In fact, that is one of her imo greatest assets as a jumper; the fact that when Yu-na is on, her jumps are just technically clean and indisputable for example, Olympics 2010, Cup of Russia 2007. Other jumpers such as Midori Ito had more powerful jumps, but Yu-na's have never been plagued w/wonky takeoffs, mule kicks, leg wraps, etc... and the jumps she does excel at, she just flies through which is rare enough as it is in the current ladies field for them to be praised.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
But the main point of my post is that they make these decisions, and in the case of Yuna, I don't get why she didn't replace one of her salchows with a toeloop, which again addresses the question: how come Yuna can do a killer 3t on the back end of a combination but never attempts it on its own? A smarter option IMO, if she really is that against doing a 3lo, would have been to keep her layout the same as last season but replaced the last 2a with a 2lz or something. Also I think Miki's 3s-3lo would be more likely to get ratified than her 3lz-3lo, which could be something to consider in future programs.

She never attempted it solo before because it wasn't worth it. If you can do it in combination, especially as the second jump in combination, then you free up more jumping passes. Much of Yuna's technical advantage in the free was that because of her 3/3 and 2a/3, she could squeeze in six triples AND three double Axels. For others who couldn't do a 3/3, there was no way to do six triples and 3 double Axels simultaneously.

Why do a solo 3T when you can do both on the back-end of a combo and then fill the free jump slot with a double Axel or another triple?

The new rules undermined this advantage, though. With only two double Axels allowed, Yuna decided to fill the extra slot with a triple. Since she didn't want to do a triple loop, she had to fill it with something else. The 3Toe is less valuable than the 3Sal, so it makes more sense to repeat the 3Sal. She could also of course rejiggle her layout to repeat the 3Flip, but she's still having problems with that jump so it's too risk. Repeating the 3Sal is most logical when Yuna had to both minimize risk and maximize base value. She's done many solo 3Sals and even several 3S+2T combos in her senior career, so it's nothing new.

Why not fill up the extra slot with a double Lutz? Not sure. I thought about that too. A great Tano double Lutz out of steps would be wonderful, and it would allow her to keep both her 3/3 and 2a/3 combos.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
And now, I feel like your stripping Yu-na of two much credit. It wasn't until 2008 that her flip started getting the ocassional e call but that debatable fact not-withstanding, her flip has best consistently praised for its height, speed, and ice coverage, lip or not. I'd say when she nails the flip for example at 2010 Olympics, 2009 Worlds, etc, it's an absolute beauty. She doesn't do a 3loop... but then again, look at the rest of the field (because remember, FS is relative to a degree); who is doing all 5 triples consistently in their programs? Please stop making Yu-na out to be an exception. And 1). Why must she do a solo triple toe when it garners more points for her to do it in combo (please stop drawing extraneous conclusions w/out evidence supporting your claim) and 2). at least her technique on the salchow is clean. In fact, that is one of her imo greatest assets as a jumper; the fact that when Yu-na is on, her jumps are just technically clean and indisputable for example, Olympics 2010, Cup of Russia 2007. Other jumpers such as Midori Ito had more powerful jumps, but Yu-na's have never been plagued w/wonky takeoffs, mule kicks, leg wraps, etc... and the jumps she does excel at, she just flies through which is rare enough as it is in the current ladies field for them to be praised.

yeah..like his favorite Christina Gao. Sorry I couldn't resist. :laugh::p
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
It seems wierd to want a solo 3T in general. Yu Na was doing a 3(lutz/flip)+3 toe and a 2A+3toe, right?

Rochette was a skater who could do all five triples
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
It seems wierd to want a solo 3T in general. Yu Na was doing a 3(lutz/flip)+3 toe and a 2A+3toe, right?

It is not just weird, it's a big waste of points to do a solo 3T, when you can do it in combination. Like I said in my previous post, doing two 3T both in combo with another triple or a double Axel frees up another jumping pass that you can use for a valuable jump. The men in particular rarely ever do solo 3T for this reason. If you can do all six triples and a quad, then you never want to waste an entire jump pass with a 3T. Instead, put that 3T at the back end of a combo, like a 4T+3T, or a 3Lz+3T. This allows you to pack you jump passes with more valuable triples and repeat high-value jumps, including quads.
 

parma

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Right now Yuna is in Switzerland to give a presentation to IOC members for Korea's 2018 Olympic bid. She had a few interviews there earlier today, and in one of them with AP, she said she will return to Oppegard after the Olympic host city is announced in July and prepare new programs for next season. She does sound like she is seriously considering continuing in the next season.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Right now Yuna is in Switzerland to give a presentation to IOC members for Korea's 2018 Olympic bid. She had a few interviews there earlier today, and in one of them with AP, she said she will return to Oppegard after the Olympic host city is announced in July and prepare new programs for next season. She does sound like she is seriously considering continuing in the next season.

of course she does..

Korean skating is still vulnerable w/out yuna which is unfortunate. I think she's trying to keep the 2 spots for worlds and there's no ice rink in Korea that can help their young skaters while training.
 

doubleflutz

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
List of ways yuna could get more points without pretending to be elaine zayak

LIST OF WAYS YUNA COULD GET MORE POINTS FOR HER EXCELLENT JUMPING, AFTER THE RECENT RULE CHANGES, WITHOUT ROLLING BACK TIME AND PRETENDING TO BE ELAINE ZAYAK: DOUBLE AXEL EDITION
- Triple Loop
- Fix 3F(e), put two in program, compensate loss of second -3T that way.
- Get consistent with 3S-3T again.
- Triple Loop
- Get a 4T. No, I'm serious. Her 3T technique is fabulous; if she could avoid injury in the learning/refining process, I truly believe she'd be capable of it. She'd need a much better technical coach than Peter O and her mom. Relocating to UDel would probably be the best bet.
- 4LZ? She and Adam Rippon can be twinsies!
- Rippon Lutz?!?!?!?!?! MORE TWINSIES!!!!
- 3A!!!!! Okay now I'm just being silly.
- Petition the ISU for a rule change that adds toe walleys/walleys as listed jumps, provided they truly take off from an inside edge. I have complete faith that she could do this one, too.
- Same idea: Lutz as an edge jump?!?! Actually I think Miki would be the only lady who could even conceivably begin to pull that off.
- Go to Tarasova for "choreography" and "costuming"
- Triple Loop
- Petition the ISU for a rule change that exempts 3T and 3LO from the Zayak rule, but only when done as the second or third jumps in a combination, or the initial jump of a sequence. This would actually be a really good way to push the sport, because it would make at least one 3-3 pretty much a necessity for the ladies, while still giving skaters a good reason to master all five/six triples, and really reward skaters who could do both loop and toe loop 3-3s and/or 3-3-3 or 4-3-3. Also it would probably help out Nobunari Oda a lot.
- Announce coaching change to Zoueva/Shpilband and discipline switch to pairs (with Fedor Andreev)
- Triple Loop
- Perform dark ritual involving voodoo doll of Miki Ando and the still-beating heart of Nikolai Morozov; acquire 3LZ-3LO and 4S and actually use them in competition; win second Olympic gold; rule universe
- Not pop/step out of her jumps at the next Worlds and give away points like that. She'd have won if she'd hit, that's all there is to it. It's not the end of the world. There's nothing wrong with having to hit to win, when the person you're competing with also hits.
- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!QUADRUPLE LOOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
But the main point of my post is that they make these decisions, and in the case of Yuna, I don't get why she didn't replace one of her salchows with a toeloop, which again addresses the question: how come Yuna can do a killer 3t on the back end of a combination but never attempts it on its own?

Krislite addresses the point reason for why Yu-Na would never need to go for a solo 3T. Also, Yu-Na did a very nice solo 3T on the second day of All That Skate LA last fall. It's not like she can't do it...there's just no need point wise.

Yu-Na's consistency with a combination with a variety of combinations with a backend 3T (3F/3T, 3Lz/3T, 2A/3T) is exceptionally rare, and I think it's a bit odd that any one would look at that skill and wonder, why isn't she doing a solo 3T. Many skaters never get beyond a 3T/3T, if they even master that.

As for her flip, Yu-Na has, IMO, the second-best flip of the ladies at Worlds. Carolina Kostner had the best. Interestingly enough, Yu-Na missed it in the FS and Kostner fell on it in the SP. She has only gotten one "e" call in her entire career, and she nailed them cleanly when she needed them most, at the Olympics.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
And Miki Ando. Her 3-3 sometimes gets downgraded but not always. And my point is that Yuna can do a 3lo and Miki can do a 3f, so if they want to do their big tricks, they should just suck it up and put the problem jump in their programs. For both skaters, I think the block is mental more than anything else. Also I think Yuna gets too much credit for being a great jumper, she's got a killer 3lutz and 2a, and 3t when done in combination, but she doesn't even do the 3t on its own, her salchow is not great, she lips her flip, and she hasn't attempted the loop in competition in years. So she's REALLY good at 2 kinds of jumps, maybe 3 depending on how you view the 3toe, but then the rest of her jumps are just ok. And I sort of feel the same about Miki, who's good at 3lz, 3lo, 3s but then only ok at 2a, 3t and doesn't do 3f anymore.

Yuna gets her reputation for being a great jumper from two things: her 3/3's and her toe jumps (3Lz, 3F, 3T). She's had more ratified 3/3's than any other lady in the history of figure skating, and they were pretty much of the best quality as well in terms of speed, height, and flow throughout the combo. If that's not enough to deserve a "great jumper" reputation, I don't know what would. (Irina Slutskaya, often known as a "jumper", did a lot of 3/3's, too, but hers were rather sloppy compared to Yuna's.)

She's a great toe jumper, undoubtedly, especially in the seasons when the tech panel didn't go super-stringent and inconsistent with those edge calls on her triple flip. Her edge jumps are not as good, though. Her triple Salchow is OK, but her triple loop is inconsistent. She has a great double axel, though, the biggest among the current ladies, I'd say.

3Lz (great speed, flow and height)
3F (great speed, flow and height, especially in the seasons before the Olympic)
3Lo (inconsistent, often left out of competitions altogether)
3S (OK, not much height, speed or flow)
3T (great flow and height, only ever done in combination)
2A (great flow and height, difficult entry with spread eagle/ina bauer)

Look back at the 2008-2009 season when she got "e" calls on her 3Flip. I would hardly say she "lips". There were far more egregious lippers before. She tends to take off from a flat edge in her Flip, which Dick Button commented on before.

She changed her flip technique in the 2009-2010 season to avoid those edge calls, which was really risky and not to mention messed with her confidence in that jump which used to be her strongest jump of all. She had the best speed, flow and height on that triple flip, which everyone remarked on when they saw it. Then the edge calls came, forcing her to change her Flip technique for the Olympic season, and change her 3/3 combo to a 3Lz+3T instead. This change, though intended to reduce risk, actually increased her reputation as a jumper because it boosted her 3/3 combo to a more difficult one.
 

npavel

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Carolina Kostner can do all 5 triples and the most of them with a 3T attached. She avoided to jump to much this year due to the injury, but she can do them. I hope she gets rid of her knee problems that still bother her soon
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Carolina Kostner can do all 5 triples and the most of them with a 3T attached. She avoided to jump to much this year due to the injury, but she can do them. I hope she gets rid of her knee problems that still bother her soon

I wonder if anyone has stats for Caro. Can't find much on the internet & can't bother looking through all of her clips myself.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Carolina Kostner can do all 5 triples and the most of them with a 3T attached. She avoided to jump to much this year due to the injury, but she can do them. I hope she gets rid of her knee problems that still bother her soon

If we're gonna use Carolina Kostner as the benchmark for judging whether a skater "can" do a certain jump, then Yuna "can" also do all five triples. ;)

Anyway, back to Yuna. She has done seven triple programs before in competition, and long programs with all five triples in competition. She's done them in her novice, junior and senior years. Here are some examples where she landed the 3Loop:

2003/2004 Korean Nationals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-phlLjuZd1c (6 triples, no 3/3 yet)

2004 JGPF http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FudQ4NwEeE&feature=player_embedded#at=99 (Short Program, 3Lo out of steps)

2005 Junior GPF http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQCDgX9T580 (7 triples)

2007 Cup of China http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2HB7ObEGnE (6 triples, popped a 3Lz)

2007 Cup of Russia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utgx4ANheww&feature=related (7 triples)

She continued to attempt the triple loop at competitions even in her 2008-2009 season. She popped it in Skate America. At the 2009 4CC in Vancouver, she fell on it:

2009 4CC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dAqkE2lyBk

It was only in the Olympic season that she "played it safe" and didn't even attempt it at all in any competition. But she nevertheless continued to train it in practice in the months before the Vancouver Olympics.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
silverlake likes YuNa...she also likes MinJung Kwak.

Correct. I do like Yuna and I'm not trying to bash her, I just don't agree that she's the victim in this situation and that the two 2a rules is "unfair" toward her. Not doing a 3lo made sense when she could do three double axels and still fit in all her money jumps and combos, but now that she can't, I just think it would make sense if she CONSIDERED putting it back in. She is entitled to make her own decisions but maybe her 2a-3t is no longer as stable as it used to be and that is why she chose to leave it out of her this season LP layout. Also, the difference in BV between a 3t and 3s is 0.2 (negligible) , and her 3t will garner more +GOE than a 3s, and she couldn't have planned to do a 3s-3t in her current LP layout because then she'd be repeating 3lz, 3t, and 3s which isn't allowed. So replacing 3t-2t with 3s-2t would seem like a smart move, and where Yuna can't do 2a-3t with her current layout, she wouldn't be using up the 3t in a second combination, so something to consider for next season if she competes. I also think a tano 2lz out of a transition at the end of the LP could be a smart move, and then she could do 3lz-3t and 2a-3t, or she could plan a 2lo, and then if she felt strong she could go for a 3lo. Also I forgot about her reworking her flip technique, her lip is not bad, but usually she does switch to the outside edge at the very last second.
 
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doubleflutz

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
She's a great toe jumper, undoubtedly, especially in the seasons when the tech panel didn't go super-stringent and inconsistent with those edge calls on her triple flip. Her edge jumps are not as good, though.

Yes, and up until this season, strong toe jumpers were given a very large advantage over strong edge jumpers, even factoring in that a 2A is an edge jump. Edge jumpers are still at a disadvantage, IMO. Increasing the value of the loop was a good move, but the value of a sal needs a bump as well, although they also need to make harsh and explicit penalties for that awful two-footed take-off some skaters use. Is there a name for that? It's as much of a thing as lips, flutzes, toe axels, etc, but I've never heard anyone use a specific term for it. At any rate, it's a big technique flaw that's as bad as lip/flutz, but it seems like a lot of people get passes on it, and it will probably get even worse, now that we're going to be seeing more 4S from the men. Still, I think the COP doesn't reflect the difference in difficulty between a true salchow and a toe loop very accurately. Combinations with a loop are judged much more harshly in terms of downgrades than combinations with toe loops; it seems like a -3T is considered innocent until proven guilty, but a -3LO is guilty until proven innocent. A good toe jumper is still at an advantage over an good edge jumper, especially among the ladies, but it's a lot better than it was.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Carolina Kostner can do all 5 triples and the most of them with a 3T attached...

Another skater who trained under 6.0 and has a different perspective from that of maximizing points.

Example: Here is my 6.0 jump layout.

3Lz, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3S, 3Lo, 3T+2T, 2A

Under CoP I toss out the loop and do

3Lz, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3S, 3F+2T, 3T, 2A

Voila! Two-tenths of a point more (twenty-two hundredths of a point more with second half bonus).
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Right now Yuna is in Switzerland to give a presentation to IOC members for Korea's 2018 Olympic bid. She had a few interviews there earlier today, and in one of them with AP, she said she will return to Oppegard after the Olympic host city is announced in July and prepare new programs for next season. She does sound like she is seriously considering continuing in the next season.

She's returning to LA in July. I think that was announced somewhere even before Worlds. And I suspect she actually made up her mind about next season a while ago.

As for new programs, I hope she tries something new (or maybe keep her LP). David Wilson is great, but she could try experimenting a bit and work with someone else, too.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
She's returning to LA in July. I think that was announced somewhere even before Worlds. And I suspect she actually made up her mind about next season a while ago.

As for new programs, I hope she tries something new (or maybe keep her LP). David Wilson is great, but she could try experimenting a bit and work with someone else, too.


According to this article Yuna says she wants to compete in 2018.

"I fulfilled one Olympic dream by winning a Gold Medal in Vancouver. Now I have a new dream to help Pyeong Chang win the right to host the Winter Games in 2018."

"It would be so special for me to have the chance to host the Winter Games in Korea and have the opportunity to compete at home"

Perhaps Yuna is inspired by Plushenko :think:

http://www.sportsfeatures.com/olymp...ays-pyeongchang-2018-is-her-new-olympic-dream
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Correct. I do like Yuna and I'm not trying to bash her, I just don't agree that she's the victim in this situation and that the two 2a rules is "unfair" toward her.

It's unfair in the sense that she's the only top-profile skater seriously set back by the rule change, as SB does well in pointing out. The validity of the rule itself is an entirely different matter.

I was having a discussion a while back with fans of a certain skater, who believed the sudden strict UR and edge calls in 2007-2008 were unfair. People who have known me long enough on this forum know that I'm rather picky about jump technique and rotations, but still we kind of came to the conclusion that it is indeed unfair to hurl such big changes from out of nowhere and with such short notice. It's not like an off-season alone can change what a skater's been doing for almost her entire career. In an ideal world, ISU would decide on changes one season and implement them the next, giving skaters sufficient time to regroup and tinker where necessary.

Not that I think an extra season would've encouraged Yu-na to bring back the 3Lo. Just pointing out yet another aspect I dislike in ISU's handling of rules.
 
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