Yuna Kim | Page 106 | Golden Skate

Yuna Kim

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
(and I wonder if you are the same kwanatic at the YNKF? :))

Lol! Yes I am the same Kwanatic from YNKF and MKF. You're on YNKF too right? Howdy! Fancy seeing you here! :biggrin:

And different set of rules, yea? If you are referring to my posts that appear to be disparaging Michelle for her lack of 3-3's...they are a little tongue-in-cheek.

Basically I do not care that much that she did not do them frequently, but I am disliking the way that 3-3's are devalued by MANY posters in response to the criticism of the recent rule changes...They are not easy, and furthermore, to do them while skating the rest of the program clean and well appears to make them more costly when the analysis is done as a whole rather than just the riskiness of the element in itself.

Personally, I think it sucks that 3-3s are not given a higher value. Last I heard, a skater receives the same base value for doing a 3lz-3t as they are given for doing a 3lz and a 3t solo...that's horse poopey, if you get my drift. Again, this is yet another flaw in the COP system that they IJS overlooks and it's very wrong. Some kind of multiplier needs to be given to such combinations because they are more difficult to execute in a combo than they are solo. So in that regard, ITA with you...

It does still hold water that Michelle Kwan's predecessors did 3-3's and 3A's. It does still hold water that many of her rivals were doing difficult 3-3's.

During Michelle's time (the height of her dominance: 1996-2001) the emphasis wasn't on 3-3s and cramming tech content into a program as it is now; it was on artistry and the in-betweens and for that reason, Michelle didn't need a consistent 3-3 that was harder than a 3t-3t. Even when skaters tried their hand at 3-3s Michelle would come out on top because, aside from a solid and usually flawless delivery of jumps, she had the artistry, content and expression to back it up.

Case in point: 2001 Worlds. Michelle delivered a well-choreographed well-paced flawless 7 triple program (that included a 3t-3t). Irina Slutskaya delivered a sloppy, over-reaching technical program (3-3s and 3-jump combos, which were not the norm during that time) that completely lacked artistry and composition. She beat Michelle on the technical mark but lost in the presentation (ie. packaging). Michelle's completeness as a skater was always one of her her strong points.

That Michelle didn't have a 3-3 in Nagano against Tara's (UR) 3lp-3lp was based on that game plan that had worked for the previous 2 seasons: artistry and complete skating over just jumping. However, luck of the draw was on Tara's side and she won (I still believe, to this day, that had the order of their skating been reversed, Michelle would have won...but that's old news). But it wasn't Frank or Michelle's lack of preparation or content...it was just fate.

To further compound my frustration, I am rather appalled that there are MK fans who are defending Ando's LP. That LP is the antithesis of all that is Michelle, someone who was known for brilliant execution of beautiful programs. Again, I have my private suspicions as to why (YuNa-Fan-Paranoia), but it is what it is. I, too, was and is OK with Ando's win even though I would have had it another way if it were up to me. It was close and YuNa was definitely not at her best.

In terms of Miki winning over Yu-Na, like I said, I'm okay with it. I don't necessarily agree with it though; I just find it hard to argue b/c she played by the rules. This COP (Crock of Poop as we call it over at MKF) system rewards what Miki did because of the way the program is tailored and that's nobody's fault except the people who put this crap system together. Backloading = More points. Miki did that. Multiple positions on a spin, regardless of quality = More points. Miki did that. Add to that the fact that Miki has been consistently delivering clean (albeit uninspired) programs all season and she had a case to narrowly edge out a flawed Yu-Na in her first performance in over a year. No, she's not particularly to my tastes, but I thought Miki skated well and I was good with her winning...
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
whole post #2104
I completely agree with everything you said.

In general, can we all just agree that the IJS has not structured its rules entirely fairly for all, or ideally? Last I checked, this is what a bunch of YuNa fans were discussing in this thread. And that's when YuNa was being criticized and stats were being sorted vis-a-vis Michelle Kwan. Last I checked, the YuNa fans were not making their case by throwing **** at MK while turning around and petting another skater who does the same as YuNa, or worse.

Many skaters do what they can do favourably with the rules at the time. So criticize the rules, instead of saying "uRRR the rules are correct, let's consider them a warning to YuNa for having the nerve to do 3-3 before the 3Lo."
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I like to welcome kwanatic (btw like your screen name) to GS. MM there are other Michelle fans other than you here. lol.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
With regard to 1998, I was hoping someone would jump in with the observation that Michelle could not train her 3T/3T that season because of a broken foot. ;)

About the fairness of the rules changes, there seem to be three possibilities as to the motivation of the ISU Council.

1. The ISU reasoned like this. A triple-triple does not need an extra bonus because it already carries the immense point benefit of allowing the skater an extra jumping pass. It is fair, then, to require that the skater who wants to earn this bonus must have something left in her arsenal to fill the extra pass with. (For instance, the jump that otherwise is missing from her repertroire.) Or

2. The Japanese Federation and its allies bribed and coerced Cinquanta into blindsiding Kim and exalting Asada. Or

3. Kind of a blend of 1 and 2. Without referring to indivisduals, the ISU does not want a skater "like Yu-na Kim" to be able to throw down a couple of triple-triples and blow away the field by 20 points. Let's even the playing field.

(I know, "a skater 'like Yu-na Kim'" sounds a lot like "Yu-na Kim.")

I like to welcome kwanatic (btw like your screen name) to GS. MM there are other Michelle fans other than you here. lol.

I know! I know! We are legion! :rock: And everybody loves us. :yes:
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Where is BoP these days anyway? I miss his comments. I love the sense of humor being expressed here in some posts, very informative and entertaining at the same time!

I haven't been posting much the past couple weeks, sorry. Been very busy trying to get work done. This is the time of the year that choreographers are most in demand to create programs for the next season and I have plenty of non-skating endeavors which require much attention as well. My posts will likely be very sporadic for the next month but don't worry, I'll step it up again in the future!
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
No, Kwan didn't have a consistent 3/3, she was a flutzer, and her spins were mediocre. But she dominated at a time when skating a program with sufficient difficulty perfectly with all the heart and artistry, too, was prized. And can anybody dispute that Kwan did that more than any skater ever? Under the rules at the time, her wins were more than fair, and were remarkable and mind-boggling achievements.

The COP is a totally different beast. Falls are no longer game-enders. Everybody starts with zero and builds points with what they do, even mistakes build points. Instead, over all, we have a system that prizes complexity and basic skating skills. Every skater must cram as many level features as possible into every element while skating as fast and smoothly as possible. And falling doesn't cost a skater as many points as underrotating a jump (still true even with the new rules implemented in 2010-2011). It's no wonder that Yuna is one of the top skaters on the ladies side under such a system. She is the only senior female skater capable of consistently escaping the UR call on the 3t on the end of her combos, mastered the difficulty on all the spins and footwork and skates with amazing flow.

If you take Michelle Kwan as she was in her competitive days and put her under the COP now, would she do as well? Very likely no. If you took Yuna Kim as she is now as a competitor and put her under 6.0, would she do as well? Again, probably not (you can't botch jumps in your FS and expect to win unless the rest of the field tanks horribly). And I'm talking about the two best ladies skaters of their respective eras. Which just goes to show how different 6.0 and COP are.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
If you take Michelle Kwan as she was in her competitive days and put her under the COP now, would she do as well? Very likely no. If you took Yuna Kim as she is now as a competitor and put her under 6.0, would she do as well? Again, probably not (you can't botch jumps in your FS and expect to win unless the rest of the field tanks horribly). And I'm talking about the two best ladies skaters of their respective eras. Which just goes to show how different 6.0 and COP are.

To be fair, you're not considering the fact that both Michelle and Yuna would have trained and strategized differently had they skated under a different system.

Surely Michelle would have practiced complex spins and convoluted step-sequences, and put more effort into 3/3's. And the funny thing is, though, Michelle lost both the 1998 and 2002 Olympics to skaters who did 3/3's under 6.0.

I think Yuna's 2003 Nationals long program to Carmen was scored under 6.0, and you can tell so by the technical content and choreography. This is more of what we would have likely seen from her under the old judging system.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
To be fair, you're not considering the fact that both Michelle and Yuna would have trained and strategized differently had they skated under a different system.

Well, that's why I said "as she was" and "as she is now". My point is that 6.0 skating and COP skating are practically different sports, so it's not practical to force a ranking of the best ladies skater of each era.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
I never like the whole Michelle vs Yu-Na battle because it's all relative to what they were brought up under. Given Michelle's consistency, I'd say had she grown up under COP, she'd have been a tough one to beat, especially given how rare it is to see someone get through a COP program sans mistakes. Had Michelle trained complex 3-3s, Biellmanns, and other COP mainstays, I think she'd have been okay.

Transplanting Yu-Na to 6.0, she'd have done well as well. She's a natural jumper, so she'd have been fine in that regard. Her lack of extension and pointed feet would have frustrated Uncle Dick to no end (I LOL every time I watch Yu-Na's 2007 worlds SP where during her spiral he says "Point your toe, dear"), but overall, she would have done well...

Then again, if Michelle hadn't skated in the 6.0 era, who would have been Yu-Na's inspiration? ;) The thing that first attracted me to Yu-Na's skating was the similarities in terms of expression and artistry that I saw in Michelle. Yu-Na credits Michelle as the one who inspired her to become the skater we see today...I'm just saying. :cool:
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
I never like the whole Michelle vs Yu-Na battle because it's all relative to what they were brought up under. Given Michelle's consistency, I'd say had she grown up under COP, she'd have been a tough one to beat, especially given how rare it is to see someone get through a COP program sans mistakes. Had Michelle trained complex 3-3s, Biellmanns, and other COP mainstays, I think she'd have been okay.

Transplanting Yu-Na to 6.0, she'd have done well as well. She's a natural jumper, so she'd have been fine in that regard. Her lack of extension and pointed feet would have frustrated Uncle Dick to no end (I LOL every time I watch Yu-Na's 2007 worlds SP where during her spiral he says "Point your toe, dear"), but overall, she would have done well...

Then again, if Michelle hadn't skated in the 6.0 era, who would have been Yu-Na's inspiration? ;) The thing that first attracted me to Yu-Na's skating was the similarities in terms of expression and artistry that I saw in Michelle. Yu-Na credits Michelle as the one who inspired her to become the skater we see today...I'm just saying. :cool:

But would she have been as consistent under CoP? Perhaps Michelle would have suffered injuries sooner training complex spins, jump combos, etc unlike 6.0 where as long as you managed to pull off a 7-triple clean program, you would have been okay on the tech score at least. I mean Michelle wasn't an really flexible skater so what injuries might learning say a Biellman have caused? Or perhaps the 3-3's would have pounded her body quicker than it did under 6.0? What about all the contortions necessary in change-of-position spins?

As for Yu-na in 6.0... well, then I would worry about her lack of the 7-triple programs as well as her tendency to make a mistake or two in the LP. And Uncle Dick... well I believe Yu-na's well aware of that criticism, thus why the improved stretch/line of her spiral sequence this year. Her layback leg could use more turnout still but hey, that's something to work on for next season too isn't it? :3
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
But would she have been as consistent under CoP? Perhaps Michelle would have suffered injuries sooner training complex spins, jump combos, etc unlike 6.0 where as long as you managed to pull off a 7-triple clean program, you would have been okay on the tech score at least. I mean Michelle wasn't an really flexible skater so what injuries might learning say a Biellman have caused? Or perhaps the 3-3's would have pounded her body quicker than it did under 6.0? What about all the contortions necessary in change-of-position spins?

As for Yu-na in 6.0... well, then I would worry about her lack of the 7-triple programs as well as her tendency to make a mistake or two in the LP. And Uncle Dick... well I believe Yu-na's well aware of that criticism, thus why the improved stretch/line of her spiral sequence this year. Her layback leg could use more turnout still but hey, that's something to work on for next season too isn't it? :3

I always thought Button was fair to Yuna and think he really likes her skating.

Scott has a different style and his gushing over Yuna is like a waterfall of non-stop praise. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIztFtmogwQ
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
I always thought Button was fair to Yuna and think he really likes her skating.

Scott has a different style and his gushing over Yuna is like a waterfall of non-stop praise. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIztFtmogwQ

I don't have issues w/either of their commentary styles (Scott though just needs to shut up sometimes :p) but I will say Dick + Peggy > Scott + Sandra :p Mainly because I thought Dick and Peggy worked well as a team. Though Dick did ramble at times/say random shiz... like during Shen/Zhao's LP back in 2003 Worlds when he said something about their well-matched physical attributes at 5'3" and 5'9" (he seemed really insistent on making that point too LOLS) and their international aspect lols.
 

skfan

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
dick and peggy actually had occasional worthwhile things to say. hamilton and bezic? i would watch without sound just to not hear them. hamilton's agendas have been obvious for decades. i'm not referring to his commentaries on YNK specifically--his post-hoc excuse making from the 94 olympics pairs event still piss me off.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The COP is a totally different beast.

And to me, a less compelling one.

The whole idea of the CoP was to make figure skating more like other sports. Phooey on that. If we want sports that are like other sports, we have other sports that are exactly like other sports. Why do we need figure skating?

Figure skating is different from other sports. Viva la difference! IMHO this difference came to the fore under the type of programs and performances that were encouraged by the ordinal judging system.

To be sure, some choreographers and some skaters still produce watchable programs despite the CoP. But you can't say, I like the CoP but I didn't like Miki Ando's performance. Ando's skate is what the CoP defines as a world championship program.
 

jatale

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Frankly I don't see that big a difference between 6.0 programs and CoP programs. Seven vs. six triples? I don't call that significant. Intricate step sequences, they can be very technical AND artistic. Maybe CoP encourages technical skaters more than artistic skaters, but artistic skaters can still skate beautiful programs. I would put "Concerto in F" right up there with any artistic program from any era.

I guess I still think CoP is a step in the right direction. It needs some further refinement, but the ideas behind it are solid. I was getting so sick of the flagrant politics that flourished under 6.0. At least under CoP the politics is quite muted. Also one person's "art" can be "junk" to someone else. The CoP by attempting to quantify "art" is at least imposing some sort of discipline and boundaries on the "scoring" of it.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
And to me, a less compelling one.

The whole idea of the CoP was to make figure skating more like other sports. Phooey on that. If we want sports that are like other sports, we have other sports that are exactly like other sports. Why do we need figure skating?

Figure skating is different from other sports. Viva la difference! IMHO this difference came to the fore under the type of programs and performances that were encouraged by the ordinal judging system.

To be sure, some choreographers and some skaters still produce watchable programs despite the CoP. But you can't say, I like the CoP but I didn't like Miki Ando's performance. Ando's skate is what the CoP defines as a world championship program.

Okay, that's just ridiculous. I can totally say: "I like COP and don't like Ando's performance." Just like I can say "I like 6.0 but don't like Maria Burtryskaya's or Sarah Hughes." Just like I can say "I respect the great figures skaters but don't care for the fact that Schuba is an Olympic Gold Medalist." One thought doesn't preclude the other. I'm a little disappointed to hear you say that, MM.
 

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
But would she have been as consistent under CoP? Perhaps Michelle would have suffered injuries sooner training complex spins, jump combos, etc unlike 6.0 where as long as you managed to pull off a 7-triple clean program, you would have been okay on the tech score at least. I mean Michelle wasn't an really flexible skater so what injuries might learning say a Biellman have caused? Or perhaps the 3-3's would have pounded her body quicker than it did under 6.0? What about all the contortions necessary in change-of-position spins?

As for Yu-na in 6.0... well, then I would worry about her lack of the 7-triple programs as well as her tendency to make a mistake or two in the LP. And Uncle Dick... well I believe Yu-na's well aware of that criticism, thus why the improved stretch/line of her spiral sequence this year. Her layback leg could use more turnout still but hey, that's something to work on for next season too isn't it? :3

Under 6.0, she would have no big problem to do the 7-triple programs. UR was not an issue under 6.0 and I am sure she can land successfully a small 3Lo that is enough in 6.0 system. Under Cop, it is a totally different story. Her goal is always to get as high GOE as possible and that is why she jumps very high. If she couldn't get high GOE from a 3 Lo, it was better to land 2A with high GOE.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Okay, that's just ridiculous. I can totally say: "I like COP and don't like Ando's performance." Just like I can say "I like 6.0 but don't like Maria Burtryskaya's or Sarah Hughes." Just like I can say "I respect the great figures skaters but don't care for the fact that Schuba is an Olympic Gold Medalist." One thought doesn't preclude the other. I'm a little disappointed to hear you say that, MM.
^ Especially when its corollary, "I don't like the CoP, but I liked Ando's performance" is being employed. :laugh:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Just like I can say "I respect the great figures skaters but don't care for the fact that Schuba is an Olympic Gold Medalist."

Well, of course I can't prevent you from saying that.

But in figures Trixie Schuba was King Kong and Godzilla rolled into one. She swatted the likes of Janet Lynn and Karen Magussen aside like gnats.

If anyone said, "I think school figures are the raison d'etre of figure skating and that the best skater of figures ought to win" -- and then added, "I don't think that Schuba should be the Olympic champion" -- well, that would be pretty strange.

What you could say is, "I think figures were over-rated in that era and I value beautiful free skating like Lynn's and Magnussens more. They ought to change the rules and diminish the role of school figures, or abolish them altogether."

Let me be more specific in my remark about Ando. I think it would be odd to say, "I like the fact that the CoP encourages skaters to backload their jumps. But I don't like the fact that Ando backloaded her jumps."
 
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