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Thread: Yu-Na Kim

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    The emphasis on speed is nothing new, it has been one of the main judging criteria since at least the late 80's (I remember Uncle Dick talking about it at Calgary as if this were a new judging consideration).
    I can think of a couple reasons for this and the more knowledgeable can surely think of more.

    Yes, a lot of things (including jump approaches, transitions into spins, footwork and in-betweens) really are harder when you're skating really fast. The only lady who can compete with Kim in terms of speed is Kostner who often can't control her speed.
    The world is full of skaters who can do some jumps and spins and look nice doing so. Judges need something to narrow down the field. Figures were a great way to narrow down a field of 28 to 6 or so who had a chance. So was the increased importance of triples for ladies after triples. Being fast is just one more way to weed out the also rans from the podium contenders.
    There are a lot of skaters who can jump and spin, but I don't think there are that many who can look graceful and effortless while doing them. I think graceful movements should be a bigger factor into the scores along with speed, ice coverage, etc. Just wondering, aren't figures coming back in the form of step sequences?

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    There are a lot of skaters who can jump and spin, but I don't think there are that many who can look graceful and effortless while doing them. I think graceful movements should be a bigger factor into the scores along with speed, ice coverage, etc. Just wondering, aren't figures coming back in the form of step sequences?
    Yep. I totally agree. I think that skaters who can do jumps and spins and other elements with excellent lines, stretch, and finesse, are hard to come by. For me, Sasha was perfect in terms of having beautiful positions and moving gracefully. I think that skaters with those qualities are extremely rare. I think that those aspects of skating should be rewarded much more than speed, and skaters who lack these qualities (such as Flatt) should be penalized somehow.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizi31 View Post
    I think that skaters who can do jumps and spins and other elements with excellent lines, stretch, and finesse, are hard to come by. For me, Sasha was perfect in terms of having beautiful positions and moving gracefully. I think that skaters with those qualities are extremely rare. I think that those aspects of skating should be rewarded much more than speed, and skaters who lack these qualities (such as Flatt) should be penalized somehow.
    Here, you perceive, is the problem. 'Beautiful' 'graceful' 'finesse' and 'excellence' are all pretty subjective. I was never that much into Cohen and found lots of others more interesting to watch. In Cohen's case her shallow to non-existent edges bothered me and her flexibility just wasn't my thing. At her best (last three minutes of Turin lp) she could even win me over, but it didn't work on an ongoing basis. On the other hand, I kind of like Flatt (though she hasn't yet figured out how to make her unconventional, for skating, body shape work for her yet). But I like the feisty can-do attitude.

    Speech is much more objective in that honest fans of both Kim and Asada can agree that Kim is faster. They may disagree on how important that is (which is fine) but while one fan's 'graceful' is another's 'boring' and one fan's 'feisty' is another's 'clumsy' everybody can agree on who the real speed demons are.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I think graceful movements should be a bigger factor into the scores along with speed, ice coverage, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by zizi31 View Post
    For me, Sasha was perfect in terms of having beautiful positions and moving gracefully. I think that skaters with those qualities are extremely rare. I think that those aspects of skating should be rewarded much more than speed, and skaters who lack these qualities (such as Flatt) should be penalized somehow.
    Aren't we talking about figure skating here? If you prefer a spiral with a beautifully stretched leg which lacks speed or/and edge quality, ballet would suit your taste, definitely not figure skating.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebsMom View Post
    Aren't we talking about figure skating here? If you prefer a spiral with a beautifully stretched leg which lacks speed or/and edge quality, ballet would suit your taste, definitely not figure skating.
    IMAO. Didn't I say it should be a factor along with factors such as speed? I never said I prefer a well positioned spiral without edge quality or speed. That's not a beautiful spiral anyways. Anyways, figure skating is an artistic sport; therefore, beautiful positioned spirals should receive more credit than poor positioned ones. And positions can definitely be measured objectively. If a skater has poor position, it's so easy to spot. Btw ballet and figure skating are actually pretty closely linked at least in the past. A lot of European skaters were known for their balletic presence on ice. So if they were rewarded in the past, why shouldn't present skaters be rewarded as well?

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    IMAO. Didn't I say it should be a factor along with factors such as speed? I never said I prefer a well positioned spiral without edge quality or speed. That's not a beautiful spiral anyways. Anyways, figure skating is an artistic sport; therefore, beautiful positioned spirals should receive more credit than poor positioned ones. And positions can definitely be measured objectively. If a skater has poor position, it's so easy to spot. Btw ballet and figure skating are actually pretty closely linked at least in the past. A lot of European skaters were known for their balletic presence on ice. So if they were rewarded in the past, why shouldn't present skaters be rewarded as well?
    So you don't think present skaters were not rewarded for their so-called balletic positions? Let us take a look at the ladies' SP protocols, for instance. Both Yuna and Mao received +2 GOE values on their spiral sequences. When you compare individual judge's scores, seven +2's and two +1's were given to Yuna while eight +2's and one +3 were given to Mao. When you compare their spirals, Yuna's has much more ice coverage and speed not to mention better edge quality than Mao's while Mao's has more "beautifully" stretched leg. But the overall results are the same. OTOH, Rachel received +1.20 GOE's overall on her spiral sequence and I think in that, she was already penalized. And I don't understand why some of you are asking for more.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebsMom View Post
    So you don't think present skaters were not rewarded for their so-called balletic positions? Let us take a look at the ladies' SP protocols, for instance. Both Yuna and Mao received +2 GOE values on their spiral sequences. When you compare individual judge's scores, seven +2's and two +1's were given to Yuna while eight +2's and one +3 were given to Mao. When you compare their spirals, Yuna's has much more ice coverage and speed not to mention better edge quality than Mao's while Mao's has more "beautifully" stretched leg. But the overall results are the same. OTOH, Rachel received +1.20 GOE's overall on her spiral sequence and I think in that, she was already penalized. And I don't understand why some of you are asking for more.
    I don't think good ones are rewarded or rather poor ones are penalized enough. In my opinion, even +1.20 is a bit much for Rachel's spirals. I mean she doesn't even have that much speed into them. I think judges are overall pretty generous for spirals. They don't penalize skaters who don't have good spirals, but they penalize skaters heavily on the GOE for poorly executed jumps. So if a poor jump can receive 0 or even negative GOE, then a poorly executed spiral should receive similar scores. GOE is not balanced for the different elements.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I don't think good ones are rewarded or rather poor ones are penalized enough. In my opinion, even +1.20 is a bit much for Rachel's spirals. I mean she doesn't even have that much speed into them. I think judges are overall pretty generous for spirals. They don't penalize skaters who don't have good spirals, but they penalize skaters heavily on the GOE for poorly executed jumps. So if a poor jump can receive 0 or even negative GOE, then a poorly executed spiral should receive similar scores. GOE is not balanced for the different elements.
    Okay, I'm glad you said that you don't think good ones are rewarded or rather poor ones are penalized enough.

    Again, as I said above, Yuna's spiral has (1) much more ice coverage, (2) much more speed not to mention (3) better edge quality than Mao's. Even though Mao has more "beautifully" stretched leg on her spiral, hers covers less ice with less speed with less edge quality. Still, she even received +3 on hers. And overall, both of them received the same GOE values.

    Now, in your previous post, you said "it (=balletic position) should be a factor along with factors such as speed (and I think it's fair to say ice coverage and edge quality should be also included as "factors"), so can you answer my question?

    "You said good ones are not rewarded enough. So would you be happy if Yuna's sprial had garnered +3 GOE points since it has 3 superior factors than Mao's? Or what if Mao's had been penalized in speed, ice coverage, and edge quality parts?

    Or, contrary to what you've said, do you think balletic position overpowers any other "factors" in figure skating?"
    Last edited by CalebsMom; 03-13-2010 at 07:04 PM. Reason: typos

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebsMom View Post
    Okay, I'm glad you said that you don't think good ones are rewarded or rather poor ones are penalized enough.

    Again, as I said above, Yuna's spiral has (1) much more ice coverage, (2) much more speed not to mention (3) better edge quality than Mao's. Even though Mao has more "beautifully" stretched leg on her spiral, hers covers less ice with less speed with less edge quality. Still, she even received +3 on hers. And overall, both of them received the same GOE values.

    Now, in your previous post, you said "it (=balletic position) should be a factor along with factors such as speed (and I think it's fair to say ice coverage and edge quality should be also included as "factors"), so can you answer my question?

    "You said good ones are not rewarded enough. So would you be happy if Yuna's sprial had garnered +3 GOE points since it has 3 superior factors than Mao's? Or what if Mao's had been penalized in speed, ice coverage, and edge quality parts?

    Or, contrary to what you've said, do you think balletic position overpowers any other "factors" in figure skating?"
    I was talking in general not just Yuna and Mao specifically. But to answer your question. I don't think balletic position should overpower all other factors in figure skating. However, I think it should be the priority factor for elements such as spirals, because it has more of an presentation aspect. Whereas for jumps, the most important factors should be height and speed.

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    My problem isn't so much with the application of the current GOE system; it's with the system itself. There are very stringent criteria for +GOE on jumps, and skaters who can do them well get huge GOEs, and skaters who make even minor errors are penalized. In contrast, GOE criteria for other elements are much less strict - just because there are so MANY ways to get +GOE on spirals and spins. It seems like anyone can get +GOEs on these elements (spins/spirals), even if they look bad doing them. This is a spectator sport - the visual appeal of the element should correlate with the score. The most important factor on the spirals and spins should be positions (and speed for spins). This is because ugly positions ruin the beauty of the entire element. If the spiral has poor position, good speed can't save it. In contrast, a spiral with great position and decent speed is much more beautiful. For me, Yu Na should get 0 for her spiral - her poor position cancels out her good speed and edges. At this point, there's no impetus for her to improve it, since she only gets 1 point less than Mao on the spiral. Mao's spiral with great position and decent speed and edges should get +3.

    This is all a matter of what you want to see encouraged in skating. If skaters are able to get +GOEs on elements that look bad because they tick some other less important (in my eyes) criteria (speed, etc...), then the sport isn't encouraging development of those elements. So up and coming skaters will focus more on jumps, and great execution of other elements won't be seen as often as it otherwise would be. What's the point of doing all that work improving positions and line, if you'll only gain a very slight advantage over other skaters who are strong jumpers?

    I'm not saying that spiral, spins, and position should trump great jumps. I'm just saying that everything should be evaluated equally stringently - if you're going to be strict with jump GOEs, be equally strict with other elements so that you can really reward skaters who excel in those elements. Otherwise, if GOEs are handed out like candy, they don't really reward skaters who excel at presenting visually pleasing positions. I think that no other factor should carry as much weight in evaluating as spiral as the position and stretch, because no other factor adds as much to the beauty of the spiral. So I suppose it's a difference of opinion in what makes an element good. To me, beauty is an integral part of skating, and part of what makes it magical for me. Your opinion may differ - the above is just my take.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebsMom View Post
    Okay, I'm glad you said that you don't think good ones are rewarded or rather poor ones are penalized enough.

    Again, as I said above, Yuna's spiral has (1) much more ice coverage, (2) much more speed not to mention (3) better edge quality than Mao's. Even though Mao has more "beautifully" stretched leg on her spiral, hers covers less ice with less speed with less edge quality. Still, she even received +3 on hers. And overall, both of them received the same GOE values.

    Now, in your previous post, you said "it (=balletic position) should be a factor along with factors such as speed (and I think it's fair to say ice coverage and edge quality should be also included as "factors"), so can you answer my question?

    "You said good ones are not rewarded enough. So would you be happy if Yuna's sprial had garnered +3 GOE points since it has 3 superior factors than Mao's? Or what if Mao's had been penalized in speed, ice coverage, and edge quality parts?

    Or, contrary to what you've said, do you think balletic position overpowers any other "factors" in figure skating?"

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I was talking in general not just Yuna and Mao specifically. But to answer your question. I don't think balletic position should overpower all other factors in figure skating. However, I think it should be the priority factor for elements such as spirals, because it has more of an presentation aspect. Whereas for jumps, the most important factors should be height and speed.
    Your logic inevitably leads to the conclusion that (1) spirals should be judged and scored in PCS department not TES; and (2) the most important factors of difficult jumps are height and speed, not the rotations in the air, so (i) no more complaints about Yuna's high GOE points on her superbly executed jumps with such height and speed and (ii) no more crybaby about 3A deserving more points for every jump should be considered in terms of such factors as height and speed as well as revolutions.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebsMom View Post
    Your logic inevitably leads to the conclusion that (1) spirals should be judged and scored in PCS department not TES; and (2) the most important factors of difficult jumps are height and speed, not the rotations in the air, so (i) no more complaints about Yuna's high GOE points on her superbly executed jumps with such height and speed and (ii) no more crybaby about 3A deserving more points for every jump should be considered in terms of such factors as height and speed as well as revolutions.

    Thanks.
    The jumps - I think she meant the most important factors in determining GOE are height and speed. Not that the most important factor overall is height and speed. The discussion was about GOEs, not base value.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebsMom View Post
    Your logic inevitably leads to the conclusion that (1) spirals should be judged and scored in PCS department not TES; and (2) the most important factors of difficult jumps are height and speed, not the rotations in the air, so (i) no more complaints about Yuna's high GOE points on her superbly executed jumps with such height and speed and (ii) no more crybaby about 3A deserving more points for every jump should be considered in terms of such factors as height and speed as well as revolutions.

    Thanks.
    Well, I have no complaints about Yuna's higher GOE for her jumps. So we agree in that aspect.
    Last edited by miki88; 03-13-2010 at 10:23 PM.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizi31 View Post
    The jumps - I think she meant the most important factors in determining GOE are height and speed. Not that the most important factor overall is height and speed. The discussion was about GOEs, not base value.
    I'm glad you think that way. Unfortunately however, some people think just landing a 3 A deserves more GOE's. I admit the last part of my comment might have been off topic though. Thanks.

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