Yuna Kim

Re: Yu-Na news

As for Mao i am laughing after seeing her landing with two feet and shaky landings etc,unbelievable,no,the new rules won't benefit if you cheat like that.

Re: Yu-Na news

Blades of Passion said:

Worlds is in Japan this year and the new SP rule about the Axel jump specifically benefits Mao Asada. I think Yu-Na going to Worlds will depend on how Mao performs throughout the season. If Mao's 3Axel is inconsistent, then Yu-Na may show up. Otherwise, I think Yu-Na will skip Worlds and then either start training a 3Axel of her own for the 2011-2012 season or stop competing altogether (while keeping her options open for later seasons, if she sees no competitors with a good 3Axel).

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I strongly disagree; if Yuna was that conscious of Mao she would have at least tried the 3A by now, but fact of the matter is, since her senior debut Yuna has rarely batted an eyelid (at least publicly) at all the rivalry hype and triple-axel-hoohah. I don't think she'll will ever try the axel; Orser mentioned after the Olympics that he wanted Yuna to try the 3A, but it seemed that she never really warmed to the idea, and in any case training for the 3A after watching Mao's performance in the GP series is going to be too late.

Re: Yu-Na news

But isn't it also a new rule that skaters can't do as many double axels in the free skate? And that triple axels are worth more and double axels worth less?

bmelanie said:

I strongly disagree; if Yuna was that conscious of Mao she would have at least tried the 3A by now, but fact of the matter is, since her senior debut Yuna has rarely batted an eyelid (at least publicly) at all the rivalry hype and triple-axel-hoohah. I don't think she'll will ever try the axel; Orser mentioned after the Olympics that he wanted Yuna to try the 3A, but it seemed that she never really warmed to the idea

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You don't seem to understand the rules for the new season.

Mao can put the Triple Axel in the SP without having to do it in combination, which means she can still do a 3-3 combination. And the Triple Axel is now worth 8.5 compared to 3.3 for a Double Axel. That's a huge difference.

bmelanie said:

and in any case training for the 3A after watching Mao's performance in the GP series is going to be too late.

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What I said is Yu-Na will skip Worlds if Mao is putting up huge numbers during the Grand Prix and focus on training the Triple Axel for the next season. That way she will have plenty of time to get it as consistent as possible.

Although, I have big doubts about Yu-Na doing the Triple Axel. Orser will surely provide her with plenty of motivation and great technique, but I really don't think Yu-Na has the talent for that specific jump. Her jumping strength is in toe-pick jumps.

The other scenario is that Yu-Na will continue to compete and not train the Triple Axel. However, if that's the case (and if Mao is skating at the technical level she did back in 2007 and 2008), she will have to hope for mistakes from Mao to defeat her. Let's not forget that Yu-Na has only placed over Mao at Worlds once. The reason Yu-Na became so dominant, aside from her excellence of course, is because Mao was completely mishandled by her coach and was given programs that were poor not only artistically but also in terms of the jump layouts for gaining points.

I don't think Mao is going to make that mistake again. She can get way more points than Yu-Na in the jumps if she does the correct layouts and Yu-Na's PCS won't be much higher than Mao's anymore considering Mao will actually skate nice programs again.

I do hope Yu-Na keeps competing, though, because the Yu-Na vs. Mao rivalry is an epic one and Tatiana Tarasova ruined it with her awful coaching of Mao. They are two of the most talented skaters ever and they have totally different styles in both their artistry (extroverted vs. introverted) and their technique.

Re: Yu-Na news

Mao also has problems with URs though, and last I heard she still doesn't have a true lutz. Further, as we've seen in men's competition, the men who do 4t-3t as their combination in the SP which is worth about 4+ points more than the men who do 3lz-3t or 3f-3t, don't seem to really have that big of an advantage in points. If the skater who does the 3-3 is good enough, he'll get the same score if not higher than the skater who does the 4-3, and this is assuming they all are clean (Worlds 2010 as an example). So the same thing might happen with the 3a, even though it's worth 5 more points than a 2a, it's likely Yuna will be able to make up for those 5 points and potentially more, elsewhere in her program. Further, if Mao goes for 3f-3lo she'll likely get it downgraded from time to time, so then it's only worth 70% of it's initial value, and the same could happen with the 3a. If she gets both downgraded, and gets dinged for her flutz, then a clean Yuna would probably still beat her by a substantial margin.

Re: Yu-Na news

Blades of Passion said:

Mao can put the Triple Axel in the SP without having to do it in combination, which means she can still do a 3-3 combination. And the Triple Axel is now worth 8.5 compared to 3.3 for a Double Axel. That's a huge difference.

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It will be the best possible scenario for Mao's SP which the JSF might have dreamed of when they demanded the revision of the rule. Your opinion also seems too optimistic about her jumps so I wonder how realistic it is. (I agree with silverlake)
I saw Mao live once and it was not a competition... IMHO, she skated slow and I didn't think her jumps were better than Miki's or Joannie's.
Mr. Nagakubo, her new jump coach, said that there are many bad habits and problems in her jumps he wants to correct and I think his view is right.
To win at GP or Worlds is something to consider but it will take long and hard work to restart from the basic as a top skater.

About Yuna's 3A, I agree with you.

Re: Yu-Na news

7 months....7 months....anything can happen if she's successful with the new chapter in her career her critics will have to eat crow. If not, then so be it. LOL. Yuna is too soft to be a competitor, and that she will fail, which is the easiest prediction after winning OGM. We'll see.

Re: Yu-Na news

So JSF and Mao supporters think of the best scenario for Mao while Yuna supporters will think about the worst scenario for her. Oh well, I guess that's how it goes.

Re: Yu-Na news

miki88 said:

So JSF and Mao supporters think of the best scenario for Mao while Yuna supporters will think about the worst scenario for her. Oh well, I guess that's how it goes.

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Have you ever heard of reverse psychology before?

Seriously you should go YNKF Yuna's english forum, they're very optimistic. If Yuna said she will skate next year, expect her to be there.

Re: Yu-Na news

The only one thing I want to say is that how much Yuna fans are self-centered and if ever there's anything that sounds or looks unbenefitial to Yuna, they start to call them unfair and evil thing of the world and criticize them again and again and again and again, saying that Yuna is the poor victim.
It's so laughable and childish of them that they forget so easily (or ignore intentionally) how much the old rules up to Vancouber Olympics favored Yuna, boosted what she was capable of doing up to the sky, ignore what she couldn't do and her weaknesses, only to help her so that she could only focus on polishing her strong elements and could spend a lot of time polishing her artistry, while other ladies were terribly busy by being forced to adjust to the old rules.( Personally I call them Yuna Kim rules)
But I never, never heard a word or a comment of complaints about rules from Yuna fans or Yune herself either those days.
Why did they suddenly start talking about rules so loud and eagerly now?
The thing is that the old unfair and absurd rules that tornamented everyone else have been finally improved and justified to some extent (not fully yet) now that Vancouber Olympics were over.
I'm sure a lot of skaters are feeling relieved and more free and happy now and they must be feeling more encouraged and motivated than before now.

Re: Yu-Na news

Hanaka said:

The only one thing I want to say is that how much Yuna fans are self-centered and if ever there's anything that sounds or looks unbenefitial to Yuna, they start to call them unfair and evil thing of the world and criticize them again and again and again and again, saying that Yuna is the poor victim.
It's so laughable and childish of them that they forget so easily (or ignore intentionally) how much the old rules up to Vancouber Olympics favored Yuna, boosted what she was capable of doing up to the sky, ignore what she couldn't do and her weaknesses, only to help her so that she could only focus on polishing her strong elements and could spend a lot of time polishing her artistry, while other ladies were terribly busy by being forced to adjust to the old rules.( Personally I call them Yuna Kim rules)
But I never, never heard a word or a comment of complaints about rules from Yuna fans or Yune herself either those days.
Why did they suddenly start talking about rules so loud and eagerly now?
The thing is that the old unfair and absurd rules that tornamented everyone else have been finally improved and justified to some extent (not fully yet) now that Vancouber Olympics were over.
I'm sure a lot of skaters are feeling relieved and more free and happy now and they must be feeling more encouraged and motivated than before now.

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Can you enlightened me what rules are you talking about that favored Yuna so much during the past years that also favored her during Vancouver?? As if the KSU has the power or influence over ISU. They don't care just for your information.

So, Yuna only won the OGM because of the old rules....you need to chill out, too much bitterness.

It's funny you called out the Yuna fans as self centered, and here you are!!

Re: Yu-Na news

Hanaka said:

The only one thing I want to say is that how much Yuna fans are self-centered and if ever there's anything that sounds or looks unbenefitial to Yuna, they start to call them unfair and evil thing of the world and criticize them again and again and again and again, saying that Yuna is the poor victim.
It's so laughable and childish of them that they forget so easily (or ignore intentionally) how much the old rules up to Vancouber Olympics favored Yuna, boosted what she was capable of doing up to the sky, ignore what she couldn't do and her weaknesses, only to help her so that she could only focus on polishing her strong elements and could spend a lot of time polishing her artistry, while other ladies were terribly busy by being forced to adjust to the old rules.( Personally I call them Yuna Kim rules)
But I never, never heard a word or a comment of complaints about rules from Yuna fans or Yune herself either those days.
Why did they suddenly start talking about rules so loud and eagerly now?
The thing is that the old unfair and absurd rules that tornamented everyone else have been finally improved and justified to some extent (not fully yet) now that Vancouber Olympics were over.
I'm sure a lot of skaters are feeling relieved and more free and happy now and they must be feeling more encouraged and motivated than before now.

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You say as if Mao fans are so realistic.

Re: Yu-Na news

silverlake22 said:

Mao also has problems with URs though, and last I heard she still doesn't have a true lutz. Further, as we've seen in men's competition, the men who do 4t-3t as their combination in the SP which is worth about 4+ points more than the men who do 3lz-3t or 3f-3t, don't seem to really have that big of an advantage in points. If the skater who does the 3-3 is good enough, he'll get the same score if not higher than the skater who does the 4-3, and this is assuming they all are clean (Worlds 2010 as an example). So the same thing might happen with the 3a, even though it's worth 5 more points than a 2a, it's likely Yuna will be able to make up for those 5 points and potentially more, elsewhere in her program.

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There are several things wrong with your argument:

1.) GOE values have been decreased for jumps that aren't the Triple Axel or Quad. Yu-Na is no longer going to get as many extra points for her jumps (nor will a skater like Patrick Chan with his 3F-3T combination in comparison to a 4T-3T combination from Joubert).

2.) Patrick Chan got more points for his spins and footwork than Joubert did at 2010 Worlds. This is NOT the case with Yu-Na. Mao gains just as many points as Yu-Na in this area.

If you compare Yu-Na's jump layout to what I predict Mao's new SP jump layout will likely be, along with probable GOE values, Yu-Na is several points behind and can only make up for it in the PCS (and she'll only be ahead of Mao by 1 point at most there if they both skate clean).

Mao:

3Axel (+1 GOE) ---> 9.5 points
3Flip-3Toe (+1 GOE) ---> 10.1 points
3Loop (+1 GOE) ---> 5.8 points

Total - 25.4

Yu-Na:

3Lutz-3Toe (+2 GOE) ---> 11.5 points
3Flip (+1 GOE) ---> 6.0 points
2Axel (+2 GOE) ---> 4.7 points

Total - 22.2

If Mao's 3Axel gets downgraded, then they are pretty much equal. Mao usually only gets downgraded on her 3Axel when she is focusing on doing it in combination, though.

Mao's LP will similarly be worth more points and Yu-Na is at an additional disadvantage because she is not allowed to do 3 Double Axels in the LP anymore. She's has to put the 3Loop in the LP, which will hurt her consistency, or she needs to take the 2Axel-3Toe combination out of her program, which will lower her points in comparison to Mao even further.

Re: Yu-Na news

Blades of Passion said:

There are several things wrong with your argument:

1.) GOE values have been decreased for jumps that aren't the Triple Axel or Quad. Yu-Na is no longer going to get as many extra points for her jumps (nor will a skater like Patrick Chan with his 3F-3T combination in comparison to a 4T-3T combination from Joubert).

2.) Patrick Chan got more points for his spins and footwork than Joubert did at 2010 Worlds. This is NOT the case with Yu-Na. Mao gains just as many points as Yu-Na in this area.

If you compare Yu-Na's jump layout to what I predict Mao's new SP jump layout will likely be, along with probable GOE values, Yu-Na is several points behind and can only make up for it in the PCS (and she'll only be ahead of Mao by 1 point at most there if they both skate clean).

Mao:

3Axel (+1 GOE) ---> 9.5 points
3Flip-3Toe (+1 GOE) ---> 10.1 points
3Loop (+1 GOE) ---> 5.8 points

Total - 25.4

Yu-Na:

3Lutz-3Toe (+2 GOE) ---> 11.5 points
3Flip (+1 GOE) ---> 6.0 points
2Axel (+2 GOE) ---> 4.7 points

Total - 22.2

If Mao's 3Axel gets downgraded, then they are pretty much equal. Mao usually only gets downgraded on her 3Axel when she is focusing on doing it in combination, though.

Mao's LP will similarly be worth more points and Yu-Na is at an additional disadvantage because she is not allowed to do 3 Double Axels in the LP anymore. She's has to put the 3Loop in the LP, which will hurt her consistency, or she needs to take the 2Axel-3Toe combination out of her program, which will lower her points in comparison to Mao even further.

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In other words...thank you JSF.

Re: Yu-Na news

Blades of Passion said:

If you compare Yu-Na's jump layout to what I predict Mao's new SP jump layout will likely be, along with probable GOE values, Yu-Na is several points behind and can only make up for it in the PCS (and she'll only be ahead of Mao by 1 point at most there if they both skate clean).

Mao:

3Axel (+1 GOE) ---> 9.5 points
3Flip-3Toe (+1 GOE) ---> 10.1 points
3Loop (+1 GOE) ---> 5.8 points

Total - 25.4

Yu-Na:

3Lutz-3Toe (+2 GOE) ---> 11.5 points
3Flip (+1 GOE) ---> 6.0 points
2Axel (+2 GOE) ---> 4.7 points

Total - 22.2

If Mao's 3Axel gets downgraded, then they are pretty much equal. Mao usually only gets downgraded on her 3Axel when she is focusing on doing it in combination, though.

Mao's LP will similarly be worth more points and Yu-Na is at an additional disadvantage because she is not allowed to do 3 Double Axels in the LP anymore. She's has to put the 3Loop in the LP, which will hurt her consistency, or she needs to take the 2Axel-3Toe combination out of her program, which will lower her points in comparison to Mao even further.

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First of all, I don't expect Mao to land clean 3F-3T. She will most likely try it, but most of time it will be URed. We will see who's right next season.

As for the Yuna's LP jump layout, Yuna could either bring her 3Lo back or replace 2A-3T with 3F-2T. The point difference is only a minor (+1.5/-0.7), so it will certainly not affect Yuna in any serious ways.

Re: Yu-Na news

Blades of Passion said:

There are several things wrong with your argument:

1.) GOE values have been decreased for jumps that aren't the Triple Axel or Quad. Yu-Na is no longer going to get as many extra points for her jumps (nor will a skater like Patrick Chan with his 3F-3T combination in comparison to a 4T-3T combination from Joubert).

2.) Patrick Chan got more points for his spins and footwork than Joubert did at 2010 Worlds. This is NOT the case with Yu-Na. Mao gains just as many points as Yu-Na in this area.

If you compare Yu-Na's jump layout to what I predict Mao's new SP jump layout will likely be, along with probable GOE values, Yu-Na is several points behind and can only make up for it in the PCS (and she'll only be ahead of Mao by 1 point at most there if they both skate clean).

Mao:

3Axel (+1 GOE) ---> 9.5 points
3Flip-3Toe (+1 GOE) ---> 10.1 points
3Loop (+1 GOE) ---> 5.8 points

Total - 25.4

Yu-Na:

3Lutz-3Toe (+2 GOE) ---> 11.5 points
3Flip (+1 GOE) ---> 6.0 points
2Axel (+2 GOE) ---> 4.7 points

Total - 22.2

If Mao's 3Axel gets downgraded, then they are pretty much equal. Mao usually only gets downgraded on her 3Axel when she is focusing on doing it in combination, though.

Mao's LP will similarly be worth more points and Yu-Na is at an additional disadvantage because she is not allowed to do 3 Double Axels in the LP anymore. She's has to put the 3Loop in the LP, which will hurt her consistency, or she needs to take the 2Axel-3Toe combination out of her program, which will lower her points in comparison to Mao even further.

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Mao will likely go for 3f-3lo meaning she will have to do 3lz as her solo jump and she'll lose a point or two on that because of the wrong edge takeoff. And she has never gotten really high GOE on her 3a anyways so I don't think it's that big of an issue. Yuna's jumps are better than Mao's, so even with the changes in GOE, she'll still get more GOE on them than Mao will. Plus I'm not sure Mao's 3a is as consistent as everyone may think, she struggled with it all season until Olympics and Worlds, and even at Worlds 2 out of 3 attempts were downgraded. She lost about 10 pounds this season so she could rotate her 3a, but she looked almost unhealthily thin, and it seemed to hurt her stamina and power on other jumps; conversely, if she goes back to her old weight then she will likely improve her stamina and power on other jumps, but likely at the cost of under-rotating her 3a.

Further, now that Yuna has won pretty much every title, I would think her competing at Worlds is to not neccessarily win so much as just making sure Korea has at least 2 spots for Worlds the next year. I think she will continue to compete at Worlds until the young Korean ladies skaters like Min-Jung, Hae-Jin, Yea-Ji, or some other up and comer, become strong enough to be able to earn 2 spots for Korea at Worlds on their own. Having placements that add up to 28 or less should be doable for those girls in a year or two based on what I've seen, and if there is any chance Korea could get 3 spots for 2011 thanks to Yuna, then that would be really great for Korea as more young girls would get to compete.

Re: Yu-Na news

I tend to think that Mao will not dominate this season because she's going through a major overhaul on her jump technique. Her jump coach Mr. Nagakubo predicted that it will take two years for all her jumps to get fixed completely. Assuming that she doesn't get injured in the process, I do, however, expect her to be 'textbook' in two years' time. This will coincide with the time around when the Russian skaters enter the circuit, and I think this will be another epic period in women's singles!

Regarding Yuna---after all, this is Yuna thread---I think her ability to dominate will be dependent on her securing a solid 3-loop. I tend to think that she'll not be able to master the 3-axel.

Even if Mao flounders this season, however, I wonder if Yuna will dominate. For one, the double-axel was such a point getter for Yuna, but now, not only has the base point gone down, she can only do two. Also, the idea of just doing Worlds seems really risky. I mean, it may be that Mao's jumps will still be unstable even at Worlds and Yuna will just go out there and manage to do all her jumps including 3-loop with the kind of GOEs she got last season, but there's no guarantee of that happening. She really ought to go to 4CC, at the very least if she's serious about trying to win.

I'm also wondering if the new rule changes will affect how step sequences are scored.

Re: Yu-Na news

brownfox said:

Have you ever heard of reverse psychology before?

Seriously you should go YNKF Yuna's english forum, they're very optimistic. If Yuna said she will skate next year, expect her to be there.

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I have been there. I must say it is generally a pleasant forum. Oh. I expect her to be there. I'm a big Mao fan but I also like Yuna's skating (she's listed on my top skaters list ), so I think it's good she's continuing her amateur career. I just find the endless comparisons of the two a bit tiring and silly at times. But alas, it does make for good drama and skating needs that I guess.

P.S. I do hope both skaters keep an eye on the Russian girls (esp. incredibly talented Liza). Even if her choreography has much to be desired, she's a big threat since she potentially has all the jumps and tricks in her arsenal. Plus, she's also lucky to be eligible just in time for Sochi.

Re: Yu-Na news

miki88 said:

I have been there. I must say it is generally a pleasant forum. Oh. I expect her to be there. I'm a big Mao fan but I also like Yuna's skating (she's listed on my top skaters list ), so I think it's good she's continuing her amateur career. I just find the endless comparisons of the two a bit tiring and silly at times. But alas, it does make for good drama and skating needs that I guess.

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Gee what a concept!!

Re: Yu-Na news

sunny0760 said:

It will be the best possible scenario for Mao's SP which the JSF might have dreamed of when they demanded the revision of the rule. Your opinion also seems too optimistic about her jumps so I wonder how realistic it is. (I agree with silverlake)
I saw Mao live once and it was not a competition... IMHO, she skated slow and I didn't think her jumps were better than Miki's or Joannie's.
Mr. Nagakubo, her new jump coach, said that there are many bad habits and problems in her jumps he wants to correct and I think his view is right.
To win at GP or Worlds is something to consider but it will take long and hard work to restart from the basic as a top skater.

About Yuna's 3A, I agree with you.

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Putting a proposal out for a revision is different from making a demand for such a proposal. Were you like, privy to these discussions when the JSF was "demanding" these revisions?