Is Dance the best judged discipline now?

i love to skate · Dec 19, 2009

My question: Is dance the best judged discipline now?

I think the COP has been the best thing that could have happened to dance. We have seen many great free dances come out of COP and now with required elements dance is considered more of a sport. There isn't the debate over underrotations and edge calls and dance has moved towards a more pure form of dance again with amazing speed, footwork, edges, and lifts. The marjority of the competitions since 2006 have been fair and correct, IMO. Dance is often my favorite event at competitions.

In 6.0 it was pre-determined, unfair, and used bloc judging the majority of the time. Thigs came to a head in 1998 when Bourne and Kraatz were horribly undermarked at the Olympics and information and deals that went on behind closed doors became public. It was arranged so that B/K would not be able to medal, no matter where they were placed in the free dance.

Here is a segment on the events that happened at the Olympics in 1998 and the IOC action that was threatened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wj9xwcFSGU

Also, a video of side by side CD at Nagano between G/P and B/K. One placed first and the other fifth. Just shameful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO82xzg6GF8

Tinymavy15 · Dec 19, 2009

I like a lot of the freedances that have been created since 2002, but the judging has not improved at all. Skaters are continuously held back until they "earn" their scores after a few years. Dance is still very political and not reflective of the skater's actual performances. If Belbin and Agosto win nationals if both they and Davis/White skate clean...that will be a perfect example. That Davis and White were 4th last year...come on.

i love to skate · Dec 19, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
I like a lot of the freedances that have been created since 2002, but the judging has not improved at all. Skaters are continuously held back until they "earn" their scores after a few years. Dance is still very political and not reflective of the skater's actual performances. If Belbin and Agosto win nationals if both they and Davis/White skate clean...that will be a perfect example. That Davis and White were 4th last year...come on.

How do you explain V/M and D/W finsihing 6th and 7th in their first Worlds then? V/M won the Free Dance in only their 2nd worlds too! C/P were 10th in the CD at their first Worlds and S/B were 10th in the FD at their first Worlds.

D/W are great in the OD and FD and receive the scores to show that. Their downfall is the CD and they need to improve in this area. V/M and D/W both skated clean at GPF and V/M have a "bigger" reputation then D/W and D/W managed to win that one.....

Audrey19 · Dec 19, 2009

i love to skate said:
In 6.0 it was pre-determined, unfair, and used bloc judging the majority of the time. Thigs came to a head in 1998 when Bourne and Kraatz were horribly undermarked at the Olympics and information and deals that went on behind closed doors became public. It was arranged so that B/K would not be able to medal, no matter where they were placed in the free dance.

Here is a segment on the events that happened at the Olympics in 1998 and the IOC action that was threatened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wj9xwcFSGU

Also, a video of side by side CD at Nagano between G/P and B/K. One placed first and the other fifth. Just shameful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO82xzg6GF8

Of course, dance used to predertimed in the past. But it is still judged very questionably quite often. I mean, our world champions are Domnina & Shabalin.
And what's so shameful about B&K placing than G&P? They are nowhere near them in terms of edges, posture and also unison. And the podium in Nagano was perfectly fine, no way B&K should have beaten A&P.

i love to skate · Dec 19, 2009

Audrey19 said:
Of course, dance used to predertimed in the past. But it is still judged very questionably quite often. I mean, our world champions are Domnina & Shabalin.
And what's so shameful about B&K placing than G&P? They are nowhere near them in terms of edges, posture and also unison. And the podium in Nagano was perfectly fine, no way B&K should have beaten A&P.

Edges? :scratch: B/K had the best edges in the business. You think the podium was perfectly fine even though it was predetermined?

janetfan · Dec 19, 2009

i love to skate said:
Edges? :scratch: B/K had the best edges in the business. You think the podium was perfectly fine even though it was predetermined?

I think there is something clearly wrong when a team is told before they skate their placement has already been decided.

I wish I could find an old YouTube clip narrated by Sandra Bezic where she goes over obvious mistakes made in the Compulsory Dance that were "overlooked" by a group of judges.

How can anyone defend "judging" that is predetermined and arranged before the competition takes place?

Audrey19 · Dec 19, 2009

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending predetermined judging. but I think in the end it turned out ok since the right couples medalled IMO.
What I didn't get is by whom B&K were told this? And why didn't they speak about that before the event? Same for T&D.

i love to skate · Dec 19, 2009

Audrey19 said:
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending predetermined judging. but I think in the end it turned out ok since the right couples medalled IMO.
What I didn't get is by whom B&K were told this? And why didn't they speak about that before the event? Same for T&D.

But it didn't end up okay because the results didn't reflect what was happening on the ice. Even with that slip in the CD G/P were still in first. How far down in the standings would B/K have been if that had happened to them? B/K were not given a shot to skate for a medal...that was taken away from them and they knew it during the competition.:no:

Did you watch the video? It was a journalist who told them and Victor stated he didn't say anything because he wasn't sure if it was a rumour. Do you think anybody would have believed him anyways?

Audrey19 · Dec 19, 2009

i love to skate said:
But it didn't end up okay because the results didn't reflect what was happening on the ice. Even with that slip in the CD G/P were still in first. How far down in the standings would B/K have been if that had happened to them? B/K were not given a shot to skate for a medal...that was taken away from them and they knew it during the competition.:no:

Did you watch the video? It was a journalist who told them and Victor stated he didn't say anything because he wasn't sure if it was a rumour. Do you think anybody would have believed him anyways?

OK didn't get that one from the video, thanks.
But if the whole thing was reveiled, did these judges actually get banned or anything? It seems like nothing actually happened... OTOH they introduced a new judging system because of a result which was fair and right... *sigh* I actually never heard about that before which is strange given the obvious bloc judging compared to 2002

i love to skate · Dec 19, 2009

Audrey19 said:
OK didn't get that one from the video, thanks.
But if the whole thing was reveiled, did these judges actually get banned or anything? It seems like nothing actually happened... OTOH they introduced a new judging system because of a result which was fair and right... *sigh* I actually never heard about that before which is strange given the obvious bloc judging compared to 2002

The IOC threatened to kick the sport out of the Olympics after this fiasco and that's when the ISU stepped in and started to create different rules for ice dance. Required elements, mandatory deductions, etc. The COP actually started being created following '98 and was fast tracked in after 2002. 1998 was a HUGE deal here in Canada, everyone knew about it, and it garnered a lot of attention. Following 2002, the ISU knew some drastic changes needed to be made as it could not survive going down this road again.

Thanks for your comments on the topic! I wanted to start discussing something different as I am tiring of the "Will Sasha compete at Nationals" thread!

Tonichelle · Dec 19, 2009

I've never enjoyed watching Ice Dance as I have in the last 8 seasons or so... it's freaking fantastic! and I think CoP has a lot to do with it.

Ladskater · Dec 20, 2009

Interesting question - best judged as compared to what? I think some of the mystery and frustration that surrounded dance has been removed. Also as Tracy Wilson says "Dance has returned to Ice Dance." For quite a few years ice dancers like B&B (Natalia Bestemianova and Andrei Bukin ) of Russia did programs that were very theatrical. Also under the old 6.0 system there was little movement in the standings. If an ice dance team came first in the compulsory dances they usually maintained their hold on first place even if their long program was not up to par. It's nice to see now that couples can move up a couple of spots and not lock into a certain spot and stay there. So yes, I would say that there has been some improvements to ice dance with the new judging system and also there have been improvements in the choreography and music choices as well.

Tonichelle · Dec 20, 2009

Lad - best compared to the other disiplines under CoP

Audrey19 · Dec 20, 2009

i love to skate said:
The IOC threatened to kick the sport out of the Olympics after this fiasco and that's when the ISU stepped in and started to create different rules for ice dance. Required elements, mandatory deductions, etc. The COP actually started being created following '98 and was fast tracked in after 2002. 1998 was a HUGE deal here in Canada, everyone knew about it, and it garnered a lot of attention. Following 2002, the ISU knew some drastic changes needed to be made as it could not survive going down this road again.

Thanks for your comments on the topic! I wanted to start discussing something different as I am tiring of the "Will Sasha compete at Nationals" thread!

I'm really learning a lot from this thread.
Anyway, COP has greatly contributed to the quality of ice dance. But I'm really not sure about the judging. It happens less often, but it still happens that the outcome is just outrageous. IMO the results should be questioned more often.

life684 · Dec 20, 2009

i love to skate said:
My question: is dance the best judged discipline now?

I think the COP has been the best thing that could have happened to dance. We have seen many great free dances come out of COP and now with required elements dance is considered more of a sport. There isn't the debate over underrotations and edge calls and dance has moved towards a more pure form of dance again with amazing speed, footwork, edges, and lifts. The marjority of the competitions since 2006 have been fair and correct, IMO. Dance is often my favorite event at competitions.

In 6.0 it was pre-determined, unfair, and used bloc judging the majority of the time. Thigs came to a head in 1998 when Bourne and Kraatz were horribly undermarked at the Olympics and information and deals that went on behind closed doors became public. It was arranged so that B/K would not be able to medal, no matter where they were placed in the free dance.

Here is a segment on the events that happened at the Olympics in 1998 and the IOC action that was threatened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wj9xwcFSGU

Also, a video of side by side CD at Nagano between G/P and B/K. One placed first and the other fifth. Just shameful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO82xzg6GF8

In the same video's comment section i found two interesting comments, one by coleengray and the other by gk891.

Coleengray: Pasha may have touched her foot on the ice BUT Victor Kraatz did NOT do 2 steps of this dance!!! Theres a cross in back cross in front cross in back cross in front-innerback edge into the double three turn. He did not do s steps...so why are they used as the example of correctness.

gk891:I remember ISU vice president had mentioned that there should be no claims that Bourne & Kraatz were ripped off because they had made 3 errors. And in comparison to Grishuk & Platov, their timing looked sluggish and their posture and extension looked sloppy.

Hopefully someone will enlighten us on these two points. And i am very skeptical of what north american commentators say, especially Bezic.

P.S. remove the comment if it is against forum rules

janetfan · Dec 20, 2009

life684 said:
In the same video's comment section i found two interesting comments, one by coleengray and the other by gk891.

Hopefully someone will enlighten us on these two points. And i am very skeptical of what north american commentators say, especially Bezic.

P.S. remove the comment if it is against forum rules

You are right that darn Bezic is very pesty.

And what does she know about skating? :laugh:

And how dare N. American commentators point out mistakes Grishuk & Platov made. Since it was set up before the competition that G/P would win certain announcers should learn to "play the game" and keep their mouths shut.

That way we could all enjoy the skating better.

life684 · Dec 20, 2009

janetfan said:
You are right that darn Bezic is very pesty. And what does she know about skating?

And how dare N. American commentators point out mistakes Grishuk & Platov made. Since it was set up before the competition that G/P would win certain announcers should learn to "play the game" and keep their mouths shut.

That way we could all enjoy the skating better.

Nothing wrong in pointing out G/P's mistake, why not point out mistakes done by B/K as well (more importantly if B/K made mistakes in their CD ).

Just listen to Bezic's and NBC's commentary on most russian skaters from 2006 olympics, Slustskaya (sp), TTMM (SP, LP), comments on Plushenko and Navka & Kostamarov, I wonder what they are trying to imply.

yes she ay be wonderful cherographer etc..., don't expect everyone to swallow her words as divine once.

janetfan · Dec 20, 2009

life684 said:
yes she ay be wonderful cherographer etc..., don't expect everyone to swallow them as divine words.

I agree she is a wonderful choreographer.......:yes:

Mathman · Dec 20, 2009

life684 said:
gk891:I remember ISU vice president had mentioned that there should be no claims that Bourne & Kraatz were ripped off...

This was then-ISU vice president Katsuichiro Hisanaga of Japan, right? Not, of course, the current vice president David Dore of Canada.

Hisanaga, bythe way, was outsted in 2002 for protesting too loudly about the pairs judging at Salt Lake City.

i love to skate · Dec 20, 2009

life684 said:
In the same video's comment section i found two interesting comments, one by coleengray and the other by gk891.

Hopefully someone will enlighten us on these two points. And i am very skeptical of what north american commentators say, especially Bezic.

Bezic was not commentating on that video. That was Tracy Wilson - who by the way was never a huge fan of B/K. As for the one comment about the ISU VP saying there was no wrong doing, I have to make two points as this statement is completely false:

1. There is audiotape proof about what went down in 1998 - thanks to a judge who taped a phone conversation. She was later suspended for releasing the tape - :disapp:

2. "Against the backdrop of the Olympic pairs judging scandal that has overshadowed the Salt Lake City Games, ISU officials Wednesday confirmed that Yuri Balkov of the Ukraine will likely judge the Olympic ice dancing competition despite what ISU general secretary Fredi Schmid conceded was "major misconduct" by Balkov in Nagano". This judge was also suspended in 1999 for his actions in 1998.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-82832075.html

There is also this article:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_omalley/20020213.html

It's quite obvious something occurred before the competition.

life684 said:
Nothing wrong in pointing out G/P's mistake, why not point out mistakes done by B/K as well (more importantly if B/K made mistakes in their CD ).

Do we know forsure that Kraatz made a mistake? So this other comment is saying that B/K were deducted for their mistake and deserved their 5th place finish. If so, why weren't G/P deducted for their mistake then?

My gosh, I sure do not miss 6.0 :laugh:

Is Dance the best judged discipline now?

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