Is Dance the best judged discipline now?

ImaginaryPogue · Dec 23, 2009

1. Thanks doris - did I ever tell you how awesome you are!

2. It probably would've been fairer to rank it by FDs. Luckily, all that entails here is changing the third and fourth around. But my hope was less than a quality ranking and more of a diversity display. I think Ptichka is correct in stating that the dances now are a bit less diverse (though I should go through a few more 6.0 years to see if 1999 wasn't a fluke, but frankly - it was more diverse than I was expecting. Lot less interesting, but more diverse).

3. I'm consistently impressed with how tall and statuesque Domnina is. Some of their moves in both free dances are considerably impressive because of that.

gkelly · Dec 23, 2009

ImaginaryPogue said:
2. It probably would've been fairer to rank it by FDs. Luckily, all that entails here is changing the third and fourth around. But my hope was less than a quality ranking and more of a diversity display. I think Ptichka is correct in stating that the dances now are a bit less diverse (though I should go through a few more 6.0 years to see if 1999 wasn't a fluke, but frankly - it was more diverse than I was expecting. Lot less interesting, but more diverse).

I think it will depend which years you're looking at.

I loved 1991 and 92 artistically because everyone was experimenting in different directions.

Then the ISU decided they needed to be able to compare apples to apples better, so they made rules requiring that the music be "orchestrated for the dance floor" and almost everyone was doing ballroom themes again. Not much diversity in 1993-96 or 97 seasons.

The music rules opened up a bit after that, so we started to see some more diversity in the late 90s.

But then in the late 90s they started introducing required elements in free dances, so the construction of the programs became more similar even as the music choices and themes widened again.

mishieru07 · Dec 24, 2009

Interesting thread.

I think Dance has benefitted the most from COP. Gone are the days of pre-determined judging (IIRC the B.Eurosport commentators said this during the 2008 World Championships). I like COP at least technically simply because it rewards skaters for what they do, with set requirements and guidelines. To this day, I still don't know what constitutes a 6.0 for technical under the old system. I've given up on understanding PCS/ Performance Marks and have left them to the hands of skate gods/ judges. Far too subjective.

IMO, Dance is perhaps the most diverse discipline programmes-wise. For example, ladiezzz appear to have pretty much the same spins and spirals (I will admit that jumps look nearly identical to me, except the axel). OTOH, you get all sorts of dance lifts and all kinds of programmes, from V/M's uber romantic FD to the Kerrs' whacky OD to C/L's RoaD FD to the Shibu's Japanese OD. I love it. :clap:

The main problem with Dance is that the top teams are technically very close, assuming all go major error-free. Unlike the other 3 disciplines, errors aren't so obvious (everyone can see a fall/pop), especially for the casual fan. The result is a lot of wuz robbing because the results can easily go either way and more often than not dependent on one's taste.

Is Dance better judged than in the past? Yes. Is it the best judged of the 4 disciplines? I don't really know. This is FS and there are controversies pretty much all the time. I still don't agree with the FD placements at Worlds 2009.

ETA: Doris, would you mind commenting on B/K's 1998 CD with regards to the errors they purportedly made? Pleasee? :bow:

KKonas · Dec 24, 2009

ImaginaryPogue said:
Random thoughts on what's been mentioned.

2. While it's too easy to blame block judging for the Nagano results, I don't think they're THAT out of place. Bourne/Kraatz's OD was notoriously weak, for example. I also recall them blaming block judging for a result at a competition where the Canadian Judge agreed with the results (I think the only judge out of step with the rest was the American one, but don't quote me on that). That stated, the fact is, even if you agree with the results (and I do), they were robbed of a fair hearing. Disappointing, to say the least.

Will have to make a correction on my previous post. It was Lawrence Demmy,
former ISU VP and World ice dance champion who said that Bourne & Kraatz had three (not two) errors in their Golden Waltz, not Courtney Jones. Canadian judge Jean Senft said she only saw one.

dorispulaski · Dec 28, 2009

Well, it's certainly easy to see the mismatching leg lines of B&K. These days that would drop the GOE of each segment the mismatch that glaring appeared in. I'm still cleaning up the holiday mess, but next week I should have some time to go through those old vids frame by frame and see whether I can find the errors; that is if there are missed steps.

sk8rdad · Dec 29, 2009

dorispulaski said:
Well, it's certainly easy to see the mismatching leg lines of B&K. These days that would drop the GOE of each segment the mismatch that glaring appeared in. I'm still cleaning up the holiday mess, but next week I should have some time to go through those old vids frame by frame and see whether I can find the errors; that is if there are missed steps.

Might I respectfully suggest that if you have to go frame by frame to detect a missed step that perhaps the error wasn't all that significant. Remember that the judges did not have slow mo video back then and for one judge to see 3 errors and another to only see 1 is quite typical at all levels of figure skating. I remember a judge marking a gold freeskate and completely missing a jump combo.

My opinion is that dance have definitely see huge improvements since COP came into being but that all the disciplines are judged in a very fair manner. All the skaters I know personally love the system as it very clearly shows them what the judges and technical panel saw and where they need to improve. While there is still some tendancy to get "reputation" points it is far less significant that it used to be under the 6.0 system. The fact remains that it is still a subjective sport and different judges will mark based on their preferences, that's why there is a panel of judges.

Is Dance the best judged discipline now?

ImaginaryPogue

gkelly

mishieru07

KKonas

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

sk8rdad

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