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Thread: "from the boot down and the boot up"

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    "from the boot down and the boot up"

    Reading various comments has sparked my interest in discussing skaters from the "boot down and from the boot up."

    Some thoughts on this would be how this has changed from the era of school figures up to today's current CoP.

    Where would fans rate Yuna and Mao on these skills? Are they equal?

    Joannie appears to be very good from the boot down but I prefer Laura over Joannie from the boot up. Like Joannie, Laura also appears to have good skating skills but both of these girls have been known to be inconsistent jumpers.

    Does this "boot down" have much to do with jumping - or is jumping technique not directly related to "boot down" skills? Proper edge takeoffs seem to be a problem for many of today's skaters - even those who are considered to have superior skating skills.

    Like many I think I do get "wowed" by flexibilty at times. I have heard Button rave about a certain turn Sasha can do from a spiral position that I still don't see other Ladies doing. Yet I hear Sasha has poor skating skills and is weak from the "boot down." And then she does a turn out of a spiral that seems to require superior edge skill. Or is it just a case of superior flexibilty? Or both?

    For me, Sasha and Oksana were two of the lovliest skaters I have seen from the "boot up." Of today's top skaters Laura is one of my favorites from the boot up and probably Miki is my least favorite.

    Since this is GS Michelle must be mentioned. . She appeared to be very good at both skills and perhaps that is why she won so many titles.

    Thinking back to the 60's and up to 2010 who are the skaters that were best at "boot down and boot up" skills. Either separately or more importantly at both.

    Although I only mentioned Ladies it would be nice to hear about the men too.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Kurt Browning = strongest ankles of all time. That's why he can move his feet like nobody else.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Kurt Browning = strongest ankles of all time. That's why he can move his feet like nobody else.
    I happen to love alot of Mao's steps and footwork - even in her exhibition programs she shows more skill at times than many of today's competitive programs.

    Would you rate her very highly up on "boots down" skills? Maybe the best of today's Ladies?

    But what of her edge problems on the lutz? Is it fair to say it is totally unrelated?

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    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Joannie appears to be very good from the boot down but I prefer Laura over Joannie from the boot up. Like Joannie, Laura also appears to have good skating skills but both of these girls have been known to be inconsistent jumpers.
    I wouldn't call Joannie an inconsistent jumper. This year she has struggled, absolutely. However, if you look at her performances all the way back to 2003 she is pretty darn solid most of the time - especially in the long program. What was that statistic last year for underrotations? 0/71?

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Does this "boot down" have much to do with jumping - or is jumping technique not directly related to "boot down" skills? Proper edge takeoffs seem to be a problem for many of today's skaters - even those who are considered to have superior skating skills.
    Ankles absolutely have to do with jumping technique. For example, Sasha has not as strong ankles as the other ladies as she often wobbles the edges on her flutz and flip. She sometimes wobbles in the ankles on her landings as well. Caroline Zhang is another skater who wobbles in the ankles - and we all know her struggles in edge calls and underrotations.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Like many I think I do get "wowed" by flexibilty at times. I have heard Button rave about a certain turn Sasha can do from a spiral position that I still don't see other Ladies doing. Yet I hear Sasha has poor skating skills and is weak from the "boot down." And then she does a turn out of a spiral that seems to require superior edge skill. Or is it just a case of superior flexibilty? Or both?
    That turn in a spiral position was a skid, there was no holding of the edge after she finished the skid. Sasha had the highest leg position - but also had a very low back and skated on a flat most of the time. IMO, it's mostly just flexbility.

    As for the men, Patrick has exceptional qualities in the boot down as well as the boot up. Kozuka is another one that is superior in both. Jeremy Ten is a great boots down skater too.
    Last edited by i love to skate; 12-22-2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: added more content

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Kurt Browning = strongest ankles of all time. That's why he can move his feet like nobody else.
    I don't know why but I melted reading that... I need a new hobby...

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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    I wouldn't call Joannie an inconsistent jumper. This year she has struggled, absolutely. However, if you look at her performances all the way back to 2003 she is pretty darn solid most of the time - especially in the long program. What was that statistic last year for underrotations? 0/71?

    .
    I think Joannie popped more triples this season than Sasha did in her whole career. Counting her two GP events and the GPF Joannie might be in double digits for popped jumps.

    That is alot for such a good skater. Maybe Joannie has weak ankles too

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    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I think Joannie popped more triples this season than Sasha did in her whole career. Counting her two GP events and the GPF Joannie might be in double digits for popped jumps.

    That is alot for such a good skater. Maybe Joannie has weak ankles too
    Six actually I think. Should we start counting falls over their career as well? I'm pretty sure I know who would win in that category
    Last edited by i love to skate; 12-22-2009 at 12:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    Six actually I think. Should we start counting falls over a career as well? I'm pretty sure I know who would win in that category
    Laetitia Hubert?

    Most likely someone we've never heard of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Laetitia Hubert?

    Most likely someone we've never heard of.
    I meant between Sasha and Joannie

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    Six actually I think. Should we start counting falls over their career as well? I'm pretty sure I know who would win in that category
    I think it was 6 at the GPF

    I hope she can show her best in Vancouver but I wonder how the pressure will effect her. It might take more than strong ankles to win a medal in Vancouver especially if the judging is halfway honest and fair. Unless Joannie is gifted by the magic of CoP scoring like she was at SC I'd say she will be hard pressed to make the podium.

    If you insist we can compare Joannie's record with Sasha's at Worlds and the Olympics - but Joannie won't win that comparison either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Laetitia Hubert?

    Most likely someone we've never heard of.
    What about Caro? She has been known to pop a few jumps?

    And Laura went pop for pop all season long with Joannie. Not sure who won that battle.

    This list is filling up with skaters that are known for their skating skills.
    Why are skaters with such strong skating skills popping so many jumps this season? Maybe the ankle strength comments are wrong or don't apply when things like confidence are brought into the mix.

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    I'm not sure what popping jumps has to do with ankle strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I'm not sure what popping jumps has to do with ankle strength.
    There could be differeing reasons.......

    My question was about skaters known for superior skating skills popping so many jumps.

    How come?

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    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Why are skaters with such strong skating skills popping so many jumps this season? Maybe the ankle strength comments are wrong or don't apply when things like confidence are brought into the mix.
    You have to have much more than great skating skills to consistently land jumps. The timing is the main factor involved I believe. If you rush a jump takeoff, the jump is not going to happen. Skaters have to take care that they don't rush the takeoffs of their jumps, but when they are ready to jump, they have to explode into the air and be aggressive with a quick, tight snap and a straight air position. Then, there can even be the problem of waiting too long and being too tentative to go into a jump. The timing can be quite a balancing act, even for the most skilled and experienced skaters. If your rotation in the air is not tight and quick enough, then the jump won't happen the way you want it to. It's all about finding one's rhythm, and every skater's rhythm can be different from one another, and this has to be balanced and achieved with the rhythm of the music, all the while on a quarter of an inch blade on slippery ice in front of millions of people. It certainly makes one wonder how ANYBODY can ever claim figure skating is not a sport or is not difficult. Also, skaters have to carefully maintain a certain weight that works for them too. Even what seems like the slightest gain in weight can really throw off their timing on jumps. These factors have nothing to do with actual skating skills. Skating is such a mental sport and the skaters have to have the mentality of a competitor at all times and not hold back. The timing, attack, and confidence all have to be there along with the excellent skating skills to achieve the success desired.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 12-22-2009 at 02:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    You have to have much more than great skating skills to consistently land jumps. The timing is the main factor involved I believe. If you rush a jump takeoff, the jump is not going to happen. Skaters have to take care that they don't rush the takeoffs of their jumps, but when they are ready to jump, they have to explode into the air and be aggressive with a quick, tight snap in the air. Then, there can even be the problem of waiting too long and being too tentative to go into a jump. The timing can be quite a balancing act, even for the most skilled and experienced skaters. If your rotation in the air is not tight and quick enough, then the jump won't happen the way you want it to. It's all about finding one's rhythm, and every skater's rhythm can be different from one another, and this has to be balanced and achieved with the rhythm of the music, all the while on a quarter of an inch blade on slippery ice in front of millions of people. It certainly makes one wonder how ANYBODY can ever claim figure skating is not a sport or is not difficult. These factors have nothing to do with actual skating skills. Skating is such a mental sport and the skaters have to have the mentality of a competitor at all times and not hold back. The timing, attack, and confidence all have to be there along with the excellent skating skills to achieve the success desired.

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