"from the boot down and the boot up"

Kwanford Wife said:

Also, I've been hanging out with my 12 year old son and his snowboarding pals and have thus added SICK and Out of Control to my vocabulary... not that I've ever been adverse to slang in my posting history...

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I need to join you for a snowboarding outing!

Unfortunately I might still say - what a "boss" move - or that is "way cool"

janetfan said:

I need to join you for a snowboarding outing!

Unfortunately I might still say - what a "boss" move - or that is "way cool"

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Hey, I told the boys that something was "wack" and they just looked at me... like I was old or something and said my "80s was showing again..." Very sad the day you learn you are no longer cool...

janetfan said:

I never seriously considered going back and counting falls.
What I would say is that Joannie could use some of Sasha's agressiveness from time to time.

I think part of what I enjoy about Sasha has to do with her attitude on the ice - what a performer she is.

I think it might help skaters like Alissa and Joannie to be less cautious at times. I don't mind Sasha going for a quad and falling, or going for a 3x3 at SLC and falling on the second triple. Watch how she bounced right back up and continued skating like nothing bad happened.

Whatever you want to call "it" ....... Sasha has alot of "it."
I wish Alissa and Joannie had more of "it" and knew how to attack programs the way Sasha does.

I wish they both skated with more attitude.
I happen to like Joannie - I like both of her programs this year and think she can be special at times just like Alissa can.

But neither girl seems to know how to get past a mistake without letting it bring down the rest of their program.

All this talk about "boot down" means little to skaters who miss a jump and then can't maintain a high performance level for the rest of the program.

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It's not in Joannie's personality to have "attitude". She's a soft skater and doesn't need this characteristic to be succesful. Sasha never went for a quad in a major competition either - and I think she only tried a triple triple a handful of times - and never in the 2004-2006 era so I wouldn't say she was any less "cautious" than the other skaters.

Check out Joannie's long program from 2004 Worlds, she fell on the first triple and then performed flawlessly after that, so she knows how to keep going.

gkelly said:

I believe Canada was the last country to require figure tests for their skaters after they were dropped from competition.

And there does seem to be a culture of insisting on strong basics (at times at the expense of jumps for the ladies).

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Yes, Canada still tested figures until 1996. There is a very strong culture that insists on basics - even skating skills that are tested today have three portions to them with an emphasis on control, edges, etc.

As for the ladies, our ladies right now are the best we have seen for Canadian ladies in a long time. Rochette, Phaneuf, Lacoste, and Szmiett all have excellent jumping technique as well so I think this is where the strong basics has done a lot of good.

janetfan said:

There could be differeing reasons.......

My question was about skaters known for superior skating skills popping so many jumps.

How come?

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IMHO, about 80% of the time, elite skaters popping jumps is indicative of a mental mistake, brain fart, concentration lapse, or similar. The minority of the time is due to technical/physical factors such as an entry timing error, hitting irregular ice or a divot at the critical moment, etc.

Popping jumps generally drives coaches crazy, at lower levels as well as elite levels. Most coaches I've known or talked to would rather see skaters go for the jump and fall rather than do a pop. Falling is usually has a timing or technical error as its basis and those can be fixed...well at least for most skaters. But a skater that gets into a mental habit of popping jumps can be much harder to cure, as the popping becomes almost ingrained as a reflex.

i love to skate said:

As for the ladies, our ladies right now are the best we have seen for Canadian ladies in a long time. Rochette, Phaneuf, Lacoste, Szmiett, and Charbonneau all have excellent jumping technique as well so I think this is where the strong basics has done a lot of good.

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Kate Charbonneau came up through the USFS system.

Sylvia said:

Kate Charbonneau came up through the USFS system.

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Ah yes, I forgot. Born in Winnipeg, moved to Minnesota when she was little.

bigsisjiejie said:

IMHO, about 80% of the time, elite skaters popping jumps is indicative of a mental mistake, brain fart, concentration lapse, or similar. The minority of the time is due to technical/physical factors such as an entry timing error, hitting irregular ice or a divot at the critical moment, etc.

Popping jumps generally drives coaches crazy, at lower levels as well as elite levels. Most coaches I've known or talked to would rather see skaters go for the jump and fall rather than do a pop. Falling is usually has a timing or technical error as its basis and those can be fixed...well at least for most skaters. But a skater that gets into a mental habit of popping jumps can be much harder to cure, as the popping becomes almost ingrained as a reflex.

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Thanks, I appreciate your post, which makes good sense to me.

I have a question for the experts, please. What exactly is meant by "deep edges?" It is more than just how many degrees from the vetical you are leaning, right? Are they talking about the actual number of millimeters that the blade penetrates into the ice?

Also (to give "above the ankle" equal time) what is a "soft knee?"

Mathman said:

I have a question for the experts, please. What exactly is meant by "deep edges?" It is more than just how many degrees from the vetical you are leaning, right? Are they talking about the actual number of millimeters that the blade penetrates into the ice?

Also (to give "above the ankle" equal time) what is a "soft knee?"

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People always say Mao has such "soft kness." Does this mean Yuna has hard knees?
I remember how Peggy use to praise the "lovely softness" of Yuna's skating.

Recently a rival coach said of Yuna "her skating is so smooth and quiet, and reminiscent of Janet Lynn." Orser, who uses tapes of Janet with his skaters at the Cricket Club said it was the best compliment to Yuna he had heard all year.

I always thought Victor Petrenko had a soft knee.
Towards the end of his career his landing knee used to buckle more than a few inches when he landed his 3A.

Maybe that is not the same thing.

Mathman said:

I have a question for the experts, please. What exactly is meant by "deep edges?" It is more than just how many degrees from the vetical you are leaning, right? Are they talking about the actual number of millimeters that the blade penetrates into the ice?

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It usually refers either to the inclination of the body and the blade or else to the shape of the curve that the blade draws on the ice.

Also (to give "above the ankle" equal time) what is a "soft knee?"

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How deeply the knee is bent and how smoothly and rhythmically.


This is all most obvious in ice dance, especially compulsory dances.


Here's a typical novice-level team doing the Rocker Foxtrot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFaoOEyOAqo

That's about the average edge depth and knee softness that you would expect to see for this dance.

If you search for videos of "Rocker Foxtrot" you'll find examples of a whole range of ability.

Here are the 1992 Junior World champions performing the same dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhL0usFhnyc

Look at the lean over the blades, the size and shape of the curves, how far and how smoothly they bend their knees.
See the difference?

janetfan said:

People always say Mao has such "soft kness." Does this mean Yuna has hard knees?

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No, they both have soft knees. Some of their competitors much less so.

Or some past top skaters. Maria Butyrskaya might be good example of a champion skater whose knee action was often comparatively stiff.

I always thought Victor Petrenko had a soft knee.
Towards the end of his career his landing knee used to buckle more than a few inches when he landed his 3A.

Maybe that is not the same thing.

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"Soft knees" is usually used in reference to stroking and steps more than to jumps.

gkelly said:

No, they both have soft knees. Some of their competitors much less so.

Or some past top skaters. Maria Butyrskaya might be good example of a champion skater whose knee action was often comparatively stiff.



"Soft knees" is usually used in reference to stroking and steps more than to jumps.

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Thanks gkelly. I like both girls - but always hear about Mao's "soft knees."
Yuna always looks "soft " to me and I wonder if her faster skating makes people overlook this.

Which of today's American Ladies might you characterize as having soft kness?

I am really not so sure might might say Mirai. Alissa seems an obvious choice as her skating has a softness about it - but Mirai seems to have a beautiful stroking quality.

janetfan said:

Reading various comments has sparked my interest in discussing skaters from the "boot down and from the boot up."

Some thoughts on this would be how this has changed from the era of school figures up to today's current CoP.

Where would fans rate Yuna and Mao on these skills? Are they equal?

Joannie appears to be very good from the boot down but I prefer Laura over Joannie from the boot up. Like Joannie, Laura also appears to have good skating skills but both of these girls have been known to be inconsistent jumpers.

Does this "boot down" have much to do with jumping - or is jumping technique not directly related to "boot down" skills? Proper edge takeoffs seem to be a problem for many of today's skaters - even those who are considered to have superior skating skills.

Like many I think I do get "wowed" by flexibilty at times. I have heard Button rave about a certain turn Sasha can do from a spiral position that I still don't see other Ladies doing. Yet I hear Sasha has poor skating skills and is weak from the "boot down." And then she does a turn out of a spiral that seems to require superior edge skill. Or is it just a case of superior flexibilty? Or both?

For me, Sasha and Oksana were two of the lovliest skaters I have seen from the "boot up." Of today's top skaters Laura is one of my favorites from the boot up and probably Miki is my least favorite.

Since this is GS Michelle must be mentioned. . She appeared to be very good at both skills and perhaps that is why she won so many titles.

Thinking back to the 60's and up to 2010 who are the skaters that were best at "boot down and boot up" skills. Either separately or more importantly at both.

Although I only mentioned Ladies it would be nice to hear about the men too.

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Interesting thread you post, janetfan, as many have argued in the past that Oksana Baiul skated from the boot up.

Lol, of course I disagree, it's like one of those old wives tales that if get told long enough they become truth (aka fiction becomes fact).

Oksana was taught the best of the best from the old Russian experts from an early age, a longstanding tradition, which is why they consistently produced skaters that could not only jump BIG with correct technique (aka Slutskaya & Baiul's triple lutzes were out of this world!), but also how to skate with S P E E D!!!! No shallow edges for their elite.:thumbsup:

Oksana's problem, like all truly great artists, is that she would allow her emotions to take over. How she skated depended on how she felt at the time. One night she could be on top of the world, the next the bottom. And so it goes...

Of course I have to mention two other of my all-time favorites, Sarah Hughes & Mao Asada.

The following quote from Dick Button encompasses Sarah's edges:

Notice how powerful the edges are -- long, smooth, and yet very strong -- it's a nice combination to have.

And this one by legendary commentator Mr. Jim McKay says it all for me as well:

As I sat watching with my wife, Margaret, in the arena, I sensed with the others in the crowd early in her program that this was something special. The small figure on the ice reminded me of Tinkberbell; she was half human, half mythical. She was Peggy Fleming at Grenoble in '68; Dorothy Hamill at Innsbruck in '76.

Regards Mao Asada, her speed & edges are incomparable, she has it all!

Mathman said:

I have a question for the experts, please. What exactly is meant by "deep edges?" It is more than just how many degrees from the vetical you are leaning, right? Are they talking about the actual number of millimeters that the blade penetrates into the ice?

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Deep edges (for me anyway) would always refer to the angle of the blade to the ice and the tracing left on the ice by the edge. So take for example ice dancers skating lobes on the ice - the good ones are usually leaning very far into the edge and drawing large circualr patterns that go from the edge of the rink to the centre and back. You need to skate fast and on deep edges to makes the patterns reach the extremes of the rink in the CDs and that is why watching CDs live is extremely educational for learning about edges etc.

Mathman said:

Also (to give "above the ankle" equal time) what is a "soft knee?"

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Soft knees tends to lead to the deep edges referred to above. If you skate on straight legs it's very difficult to generate any power, skate into the ice (as opposed to skitting around on top of it), and get onto and hold an edge. In order to do all of this you need to have very bent knees and ankles and it's the flexing and straightening of the knees and ankles (while remaining low to the ice and not havingyour body bob up and down or your bottom sticking out and and in, or having your back pump up and down) that creates the power. If you have "soft knees" then it means you easily/fluidly flex and straighten your legs while skating.

Ant

As friends who attend skating shows with me me know, I oftewatch Jeff Buttle from the knees down. His edges are exquisite.

Brandenburg

Here is an interesting piece ABC did about the future of school figures back in 1988.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTQ5...336A73D2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=11

Many interesting comments from various skaters, commentators and Bianchetti for the ISU.


Here is another interesting clip about the 1990 Worlds, the last time figures were used in competition. Shots of Midori and Jill doing figures and how the figures cost Midori the championship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IaWacT8s1s

"Boot Up, Boot Down" ? Are we comparing edges or skating skills or what here? All figure skaters - even sans the figure training of today, should be taught proper edge control and good basic skating skills. As pointed out here Kurt Browning and Jeff Buttle are both superior at using deep edges and fantastic foot work. As every skater knows, jumps are important but it's learning the basics and developing strong skating skills that makes a great skater.

Addendum:

Great skaters are great skaters for a reason.

One doesn't become an Olympic Champion, or even an Olympic/World Medalist, without good reason. Without a good solid foundation, nothing else matters, it all goes back to the beginning. And from there they can F L Y!!!!

I agree with Antmanb's post about soft knees and deep edges leading to power strokes. You worded it so well!

I agree of today's skaters, Mao seems to be the best example of a lovely skater both below and above the boot. There are several that excel below the boot-Yu-Na, Miki, Joanne, but may not be as "pretty" as Mao above, but are pretty darn close, IMO! Of the US Ladies, I think Mirai has the most potential, and Rachael is up there as well. I think Caroline has gorgeous above boot position, but very lacking below the boot. Kimmie was a great below the boot skater, with such soft knees. It's a shame things fell apart on her, she was working so hard and showing improvements in her above boot skating as well.

I do think Michelle did a great job blending the two, she had great edges and soft knees. She may not have had the most power or speed, but she was no slouch in that department. And I do believe her above boot positions were lovely. Whenever I think of soft knees when landing a jump, I picture something like this:
http://l.yimg.com/go/news/picture/2009/8/20090814/2009081422031356908_220504_2.jpg
...she always showed off a nice, deep edge, soft knees to absorb the landing and wonderful run out.

One thing I've noted about Sasha over the years is because she didn't seem to be as schooled in figures, her edges, speed and power of strokes didn't appear to equal her main competitors. But she is one of the best above the boot skaters in terms of positions, and does seem to have relatively soft knees, so I never really understood the relation. What I think is very telling is a comment Mr. Nicks made years back, that he told both Sasha and Naomi if they practice nothing else, to work on flexibility and spins. And what were both excellent in?

A comment in regards to your 1st post, Janetfan-the "skid" move you are referring to by Sasha is a very nice trick, she shows excellent flexibility in her positions and some control in the reverse of direction, but if you watch some of the masters (Robin Cousins, I believe is actually credited with inventing this spiral) at the "slide spiral," the edge work and control is much more impressive, those skaters would keep the momentum going after change of direction, and I would assume that is due to more training in figures. If you notice, Sasha took the skid out of her spiral sequence once COP was implemented, instead used it has a transition or MITF. Since she could not keep the forward position going, it was null under COP. A few skaters have included a slide move in their spiral sequence under COP-off the top of my head is Mao, who did both positions in a Y-spiral I think in in the 2005-06 season, but even she had a bit trouble always holding the 2nd position long enough to meet the upper level requirement. We've also seen a few do it as Sasha had, as a transition/MITF, I think Bebe did this fall???