Philip Hersh on Cinquanta pressuring Yu-Na Kim to compete at 4CC

figurejennah · Jan 8, 2010

bigsisjiejie said:
1) I did not assume that just because you are a Yuna fan that you are Korean. It just seemed to me you had a reading comprehension problem, regardless of where you are from. (I still think this.)

Well, for your information, although I wasn't born in the states, I've lived here all my life, so I consider English as my first language. I will just laugh at you telling me that my English is not good enough. I've never heard that I had reading comprehension problems, and again, my English is good enough to pass the bar, so I don't need your English lessons.
If I disagree with someone's posts and what she means by it, don't attack me by saying something stupid like "I don't think English is your first language....so let me explain..." That is pathetic.

Mathman · Jan 8, 2010

i love to skate said:
Rule 136 part 6

That is really quite a strange rule, the way it is worded. In the first place, the ISU does not have much direct control over skaters because skaters are not members of the ISU. Only national federations are. So all the ISU can do is ask a federation to give "priority" to ISU interests when assigning skaters to events.

Secondly, consider this language:

(National federations) shall have the obligation, when entering or authorizing the participation of such Skaters in Skating competitions and/or exhibitions, to give first priority to participation of such Skaters in those ISU Events which are the subject of ISU television and commercial contracts..

To me this says that if a federation has a choice of sending a skater to an exhibition/show that the ISU does not make money off, or else sending that skater to a televised/sponsored ISU event, that the federation should try to get the skater to choose the latter.

I cannot see anything in the language of this rule that prohibits a skater from simply staying home.

i love to skate · Jan 8, 2010

figurejennah said:
You see, here's where you and I disagree. The point is that he "threatened" to sanction Yuna kim only, and that's why it's controversial. He probably sent out letters to other skaters, too, but there are no reports about other skaters being threatened to be sanctioned.

He's done it in the past. Here's an article that was published last year on the Canadian team at WTT. This part certainly sounds like a threat of a sanction to me:

Though weary, skaters declined to criticize the ISU for what was plainly a command performance.

"We weren't exactly forced to participate," said Moir. "But the ISU told us if we didn't come, we wouldn't be allowed to do anything else for the rest of the year, including shows

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/WinterSports/article/621104

Mathman said:
I cannot see anything in the language of this rule that prohibits a skater from simply staying home.

Skaters who refuse to participate in such ISU Events, without medical or other justified reasons, shall be subject to sanctions under the relevant rules

figurejennah · Jan 8, 2010

i love to skate said:
He's done it in the past. Here's an article that was published last year on the Canadian team at WTT. This part certainly sounds like a threat of a sanction to me:

Yes, I understand that, and I quoted you before. I myself couldn't believe that Canadian skaters were dragged to partipate and especially Joannie received horrible scores. That was ridiculous.

However, it's the olympics season. Being forced to participate in WTT after the season is over is a different situation from this, isn't it? You know what, I think this conspiracy theory will go away if all the other top 10 skaters (excluding those who have to participate in their nationals) come out and announce that they, too, have been threatened by Cinquanta to be sanctioned. That will do. lol.

Mathman · Jan 8, 2010

i love to skate said:
He's done it in the past. Here's an article that was published last year on the Canadian team at WTT. This part certainly sounds like a threat of a sanction to me:

Though weary, skaters declined to criticize the ISU for what was plainly a command performance.

"We weren't exactly forced to participate," said Moir. "But the ISU told us if we didn't come, we wouldn't be allowed to do anything else for the rest of the year, including shows."

Again, I think this is in the spirit of, if you don't do the ISU event then you can't do something else instead. To me, it seems similar to the rule that if you withdraw from the Grand Prix then you can't do any exhibitions or shows during the Grand Prix season.

I do not see any authority by which the ISU can tell a skater, you can't skate in SOI in July because you skipped the World Team Trophy in March.

"Skaters who refuse to participate in such ISU Events, without medical or other justified reasons, shall be subject to sanctions under the relevant rules."

I would be curious to know what the "relevant rules" are. I do not see how the ISU can "sanction" anyone except its own members. It can't sanction me, for instance, because I am not a member of the ISU. Neither is Yuna Kim.

miki88 · Jan 8, 2010

figurejennah said:
Yes, I understand that, and I quoted you before. I myself couldn't believe that Canadian skaters were dragged to partipate and especially Joannie received horrible scores. That was ridiculous.

However, it's the olympics season. Being forced to participate in WTT after the season is over is a different situation from this, isn't it? You know what, I think this conspiracy theory will go away if all the other top 10 skaters (excluding those who have to participate in their nationals) come out and announce that they, too, have been threatened by Cinquanta to be sanctioned. That will do.

Well, maybe Yuna is the only one being sanctioned, because she is a top skater and the only skater that can represent Korea. I don't think Miki Ando will be threatened because her teammates have already decided to go. As for the other top skaters, I think a lot of them have nationals but I am not sure. Anyways, it is already confirmed that Yuna is not going to go, so I think everyone should just calm down. This discussion has become too heated :yes:

Mathman · Jan 8, 2010

miki88 said:
Anyways, it is already confirmed that Yuna is not going to go...

I agree. Yuna Kim is not going to Four Continents. Mr. Cinquanta will not be "sanctioning" anyone. The end.

BlackAxel · Jan 8, 2010

If I am not mistaken didnt cinquanta used to be a speed skater??? He obviously doesnt understand the strenuous practices and hard work that these skaters put in for the competitions during the season and especially for the Olympic season. In my opinion, Cinquanta is not even fit to make decisions for the skaters by forcing, or rather "threatening" the skaters to skate in competitions, either WTT or 4CC. By giving a sanction as an option for skaters who chose not skate in a competition can basically be seen as a form of a threat.......

Mathman · Jan 8, 2010

^ Well, Cinquanta was formerly a speed skater, but now he is the CEO of an international sports regulatory body.

In my opinion, he is in a awkward position. He wants the ISU program to be successful and profitable. When he peddles events to potential sponsors, he wants to be able to promise paricipation by the top stars. Therefore he must bluster about threatening sanctions and what-not to preserve his credibility with the financial people that he pals around with.

In fact, he never does half of what he threatens. Yu-na Kim just blew off his posturing. I doubt that Cinquanta cares. it was just for show anyway. (That's my take on it, anyway.

)

Tonichelle · Jan 8, 2010

Mathman said:
I do not see any authority by which the ISU can tell a skater, you can't skate in SOI in July because you skipped the World Team Trophy in March.

If SOI is not a sanctioned exhibition/show/tour of the ISU then the skater does not just "get" to be a part of it. Like with each federation the skater has to petition/ask permission to join up. If they do it without permission, well, then, they're disqualified from competition. No olympics for you.

Skate Canada pulled similar stuff around the time that Kurt Browning was competiting because in those days a skater couldn't keep their olympic eligibility, Kurt was able to find a compromise (he set up a trust fund of sorts) and David Dore (I believe was the president of Skate canada at the time) backed down (like Speedy he was posturing more than anything to try and show how much control he had, but knew if Kurt walked, then no more Canadian star on the world stage).

4CC just comes at a crappy time this year... there's no way around it. Euros works because all of the federations that participate in it traditionally hold their national championships earlier... tradition for N. America dictates January is the time to get 'er done... add in the stupid new way of doing nationals thanks to NBC and it's just not gonna work.

Mathman · Jan 8, 2010

Tonichelle said:
If SOI is not a sanctioned exhibition/show/tour of the ISU then the skater does not just "get" to be a part of it. Like with each federation the skater has to petition/ask permission to join up. If they do it without permission, well, then, they're disqualified from competition. No olympics for you.

Skate Canada pulled similar stuff around the time that Kurt Browning was competiting...

Yeah, there were a lot of "rules about how to get around the rules" back then. I remember there was quite a long while in the U.S. where Olympic eligible skaters were allowed to skate in COI because Tom Collins paid a kickback to the USFSA. But Scott Hamilton refused to pay, so skaters couldn't be in SOI.

I believe that Todd Eldredge was the first one to work out a deal with SOI that met with USFSA's approval. This might have been after COI folded.

i love to skate · Jan 8, 2010

Tonichelle said:
4CC just comes at a crappy time this year... there's no way around it. Euros works because all of the federations that participate in it traditionally hold their national championships earlier... tradition for N. America dictates January is the time to get 'er done... add in the stupid new way of doing nationals thanks to NBC and it's just not gonna work.

In my view, the travel is the biggest detriment to 4CC. It is a much farther distance for the athletes to travel compared to Europeans. If it was two seperate competitions - one for the Pacific and one for N.A - I think it would be better received.

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 9, 2010

To be fair the ISU, the Four Continents is realistically only comparable with Europeans in terms of quality because Asia and North America is combined. In an area where one side falters, overall, the quality is much lower (dance and pairs). If they were to split them, quality would suffer and every year would be like this one.

starrynight · Jan 9, 2010

i love to skate said:
Source??

Hersh's article only mentions a sanction against the KSU.

136(6) of the ISU Rules mentioned in his letter to the KSU. Hope this helps.

Grgranny · Jan 9, 2010

Wish there were some way of getting rid of sick. (Ciquanta.)

starrynight · Jan 9, 2010

Mathman said:
I agree. Yuna Kim is not going to Four Continents. Mr. Cinquanta will not be "sanctioning" anyone. The end.

How do you know that, unless you are Mr.C? He has never officially withdrawn what he said regarding sanctions. And that's why Judd and Hersh keep making it an issue, I guess.

Mathman · Jan 9, 2010

starrynight said:
...unless you are Mr.C?

Shhhh.

i love to skate · Jan 9, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
To be fair the ISU, the Four Continents is realistically only comparable with Europeans in terms of quality because Asia and North America is combined. In an area where one side falters, overall, the quality is much lower (dance and pairs). If they were to split them, quality would suffer and every year would be like this one.

I think it would still be very exciting. N.A would have a strong competition in Men's and Ladies and a lights out Dance competition. Pairs would be okay. It would be the same in Asia - just switch Dance for Pairs. Only one weak discipline.

If they keep it the way it is now it is never going to become on par with Europeans. It is unnecessary travel - and with the GPF being held in Asia for the past two years (and next year too) it is another long flight for NA skaters. Four Continents is in Asia for the next two years at least to.

Skaters would very much favour a 4 or 5 hour flight compared to a 14 hour one in the middle of the season.

Tonichelle · Jan 9, 2010

Mathman said:
Yeah, there were a lot of "rules about how to get around the rules" back then. I remember there was quite a long while in the U.S. where Olympic eligible skaters were allowed to skate in COI because Tom Collins paid a kickback to the USFSA. But Scott Hamilton refused to pay, so skaters couldn't be in SOI.

I believe that Todd Eldredge was the first one to work out a deal with SOI that met with USFSA's approval. This might have been after COI folded.

Todd SIGNED with SOI while still an olympic elligible in 2002... but he never went back to competitive skating so *shrugs*

the reason they're allowed to now is because they bought out COI... so there isn't one tour battling another (I personally miss the SOI of old where there weren't a ton of guest stars and almost NO core cast)

4CC had a fantastic line up in 2001... most of the big names showed... granted they were skating in the olympic venue so everyone jumped at that opportunity to get that advantage of having skated there prior to the games, but still...

adoreyuna · Jan 9, 2010

starrynight said:
I don't think Hersh was particularly motivated to mislead ppl, since he titled JPN back deals as a conspiracy theory, not as a hard fact. It is readers' job not to grossly read into it, I guess.

I think Figure skating is significantly different from Baseball, Basketball and, and Football, like Gymnastic and Synchronized swimming. For example, if Ichiro makes an infield hit, an umpire can't do "Wow~ that's a fantastic hit, so I will give him a home-run." Basketball and Football are the same as Baseball. These are not sports finished by highly subjective judges' point of views. Their roles are quite dissimilar. So people are very loquacious about figure skating just as Gymnastic.

If Philip Hersh's words were absolutely his absurd delusions, I don't think Chicago Tribune would allow those. They are not foolish. Whether his writing is an inconvenient truth or not, it is quite reasonable to me.

Philip Hersh on Cinquanta pressuring Yu-Na Kim to compete at 4CC

figurejennah

Mathman

i love to skate

figurejennah

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miki88

Mathman

BlackAxel

Mathman

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Mathman

i love to skate

ImaginaryPogue

starrynight

Grgranny

Da' Spellin' Homegirl

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Mathman

i love to skate

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

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