Lysacek's triple Axel

silverlake22 · Jan 10, 2010

Buttercup said:
Lysacek has never really had a consistent quad, though, and certainly not a consistent 4-3. At this point his not putting one in the programs strikes me as having more to do with that lack of consistency than with last year's foot injury.

The tallest skater I can think of with a more consistent quad is Alban Preaubert. He's 6' tall, though it's sometimes hard to tell because of his posture. Tomas Verner is listed at 5'11 (1.80m) by the ISU but according to his website, he's 5'10''/1.78.

Yeah, I guess the 2-4 inches could make a difference. Carolina is only 2-3 inches than most of the female skaters and it clearly makes a difference with the jumps (giving her the benefit of the doubt that her consistency issues aren't completely due to her being a headcase). It's funny, Verner's quad is probably his most consistent jump. The 4-3 is nearly always there and beautiful and it's just the easier jumps (not his 3a, that's usually good too) later in the program that fail him. So frustrating!

I guess Evan doesn't really need the quad though, as his PCS make up for it. Plus Johnny and Oda don't do them (in competition). Joubert has 2 different quads but has been struggling this season with his injury, is he definitely going to Europeans this year or might he still pull out b/c of injury?

janetfan · Jan 10, 2010

Tonichelle said:
close as most today

and *wow* look at that BRILLIANT choreography! not the CoP skate around and go from element to element crap we have now /sarcasm :sheesh:

seriously other than having the slow "rest sections" I don't see much of a difference, and at least we're not stuck with a ton of telegraphed jumps.

Your post and several others made me wonder about the 'tano Lutz.

A couple of questions - under CoP would a well executed 'tano lutz be worth more than a well executed regular 3lutz - maybe in the goe ?

Who is doing the 'tano lutz in this era? I think Rippon is the only skater I saw do it this season - and he said it is very difficult and much harder than a regular lutz.

Why is it that a jump Brian was doing 20 years ago still appears to be too hard for most of today's skaters to use in their programs?

Medusa · Jan 10, 2010

janetfan said:
Who is doing the 'tano lutz in this era? I think Rippon is the only skater I saw do it this season - and he said it is very difficult and much harder than a regular lutz.

Why is it that a jump Brian was doing 20 years ago still appears to be too hard for most of today's skaters to use in their programs?

Several skaters do arm variations, not always the tano lutz - but e.g. on combination parts. Carriere, Weir, I think Chan at one point. Don't know about the ladies though - Leonova does it, I think, on some Double Toe somewhere. It gets positive GOE as a difficult variation. Some do it and some don't. Don't know what your point is here.

You could ask the same for the Quad. And why is it that a jump Kurt Browning was doing 20 years ago still appears to be too hard for most of today's skaters to use in their programs?

janetfan · Jan 10, 2010

Medusa said:
Several skaters do arm variations, not always the tano lutz - but e.g. on combination parts. Carriere, Weir, I think Chan at one point. Don't know about the ladies though - Leonova does it, I think, on some Double Toe somewhere. It gets positive GOE as a difficult variation. Some do it and some don't. Don't know what your point is here.

You could ask the same for the Quad. And why is it that a jump Kurt Browning was doing 20 years ago still appears to be too hard for most of today's skaters to use in their programs?

My point might be that there are many comments about the quad and it seems fair to say more guys are doing/attempting quads than the 'tano Lutz.

We are all entitled to our preferences - and for me the 'tano Lutz is still one of the most regal looking jumps I have ever seen. Certainly better looking than so many quads that are barely rotated, or have a bobbled/buckled knee or two footed landings and typically have no flow or a very unattractive flow out of the landing.

AFAIK, the tano Lutz was done before quads and although we see many skaters doing quads we see very few doing the tano lutz.

I will go with Rippon's explantion that it is very difficult. I mentioned it because it is still one one of my favorite jumps.

Sylvia · Jan 10, 2010

janetfan said:
Your post and several others made me wonder about the 'tano Lutz.

A couple of questions - under CoP would a well executed 'tano lutz be worth more than a well executed regular 3lutz - maybe in the goe ?

Who is doing the 'tano lutz in this era? I think Rippon is the only skater I saw do it this season - and he said it is very difficult and much harder than a regular lutz.

Why is it that a jump Brian was doing 20 years ago still appears to be too hard for most of today's skaters to use in their programs?

Actually, Rippon debuted his own harder variation on the 'Tano Lutz this season by doing a 3Lz with BOTH arms over his head -- he did it the first time in his SP at TEB (at the 2:30 min. mark): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdP5oHCjAbk
Peter Carruthers was very impressed.

janetfan · Jan 10, 2010

Sylvia said:
Actually, Rippon debuted his own harder variation on the 'Tano Lutz this season by doing a 3Lz with BOTH arms over his head -- he did it the first time in his SP at TEB (at the 2:30 min. mark): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdP5oHCjAbk
Peter Carruthers was very impressed.

I was also impressed with Rippon's two armed variation of the 'Tano.

Looking through the archives I found this old chestnut from joesitz::

"It's the law of centrifical(sp) force and until they repeal that law we are going to see a lot splat tanos."
Joe

Thankyou Joe for answering my question several years before I asked it

Tonichelle · Jan 10, 2010

Medusa said:
And why is it that a jump Kurt Browning was doing 20 years ago still appears to be too hard for most of today's skaters to use in their programs?

because Browning is superhuman. duh. :love:

well, at least in my mind.

silverlake22 · Jan 10, 2010

Tonichelle said:
because Browning is superhuman. duh.

well, at least in my mind.

Umm....Plushenko is superman, and Joubert looks like super man :agree:

at least in my mind :laugh:

Tonichelle · Jan 10, 2010

I didn't say anything about superman... superman can't hold a candle to these skaters, but that's just me.

gkelly · Jan 10, 2010

janetfan said:
Your post and several others made me wonder about the 'tano Lutz.

A couple of questions - under CoP would a well executed 'tano lutz be worth more than a well executed regular 3lutz - maybe in the goe ?

Yes in the GOE. Spread eagle entry plus difficult air position would already meet two bullet points toward positive GOE, so it should get one more plus, or one fewer minuses, than a jump with the same height distance, quality of entry and exit edges, etc. Some of Boitano's best executions of that element should be worth +3.

The spread eagle entry would also add to the Transitions and maybe Choreography components.

If you're just talking about the arm overhead, that's only one positive bullet point, so it wouldn't guarantee a higher GOE, but I think in most cases it would make the difference between 0 and +1, or +1 vs. +2 or -1 vs. 0. If there were a significant error that might cancel out the enhanced arm position.

silverlake22 · Jan 10, 2010

Tonichelle said:
I didn't say anything about superman... superman can't hold a candle to these skaters, but that's just me.

Haha I can't read, my bad. I really hope the men's event at the Olympics is exciting and everyone competes at their best, if that happens, it'll be super exciting. All those quads :love:

shine · Jan 11, 2010

antmanb said:
Who cares it's a thread about Lysacek

I've been thinking more and more about this. HIs triple axel is nothing like a salchow. While the mechanics of the jumps are similar and people tend to learner the lower axel and higher salchow at around the same time and both help in getting the other, there's a very big difference to being on that inside edge for the sal and the outside edge for the axel, the skaters no matter how pre-rotated and how much they skid stay on that outside edge up until the point they take off.

That got me to thinking that maybe Evan should lobby to have the toe-less Lutz made a listed jump and perform his triple axel as a toe-less lutz - skid it round on the ice until he is completely 180 from the step onto the LFO edge (maybe even clean it up to be a proper rocker) and bam - the first triple toe-less lutz in competition

Ant

The way Evan skids on his forward outside takeoff edge is that he rotates his toe pick on the ice and almost does a three turn out of it, although the exist edge of the turn is not held. So IMO he definitely doesn't take off from a LFO edge like they are supposed to-more like a LBI edge. Although it's an exaggeration to say his 3axel is a 3sal, but he does tend to finish the first 1/2 rotation on the ice with his toepick, if he held the exist edge just a little longer, it would be exactly a salchow.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 11, 2010

gkelly said:
Yes in the GOE. Spread eagle entry plus difficult air position would already meet two bullet points toward positive GOE, so it shonuld get one more plus, or one fewer minuses, than a jump with the same height distance, quality of entry and exit edges, etc. Some of Boitano's best executions of that element should be worth +3.
.
The spread eagle entry would also add to the Transitions and maybe Choreography components.

If you're just talking about the arm overhead, that's only one positive bullet point, so it wouldn't guarantee a higher GOE, but I think in most cases it would make the difference between 0 and +1, or +1 vs. +2 or -1vs. 0. If there were a significant error that might cancel out the enhanced arm position.

I think the connection between a spread eagle, an ina bauer, a spiral, and a shoot-the-duck before an attempted jump often have long pauses between the MIF and the jump. In some cases, far too long,imo, to be called a connection.

I believe a MIF into a Jump must be the same as a three turn into a Flip, and should be scored on the GoEs of the jump. That's where I would see a connection.

SkatingAnalyst · Jan 11, 2010

Right way to do it

The author of this video must be proud of the skater...
He included some out-of-step attempts...But it is perfect technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA9O8DRvgmU

Midori Ito uses the skidding...
Only as a leverage to turn... not as a tool to pre-rotate.
She converts all of her speed into the jump for the maximum height & distance.

If you pre-rotate, the jump may look... light & easy because of less rotation and
distance.
But it violates two principal rules. Cheated take-off and required rotations.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 12, 2010

ns

SkatingAnalyst said:
The author of this video must be proud of the skater...
He included some out-of-step attempts...But it is perfect technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA9O8DRvgmU

Midori Ito uses the skidding...
Only as a leverage to turn... not as a tool to pre-rotate.
She converts all of her speed into the jump for the maximum height & distance.

If you pre-rotate, the jump may look... light & easy because of less rotation and
distance.
But it violates two principal rules. Cheated take-off and required rotationls.

Thanks for the clip. The slomo shows a takeoff cheat of 1/4 turn. So is that terrible when one sees the many prerotations of the loop and salchow? She did 2-3/4 air turns and how many ladies can make that with a no cheat landing?

Edge jumps have difficult takeoffs if one is looking for perfection.

SkatingAnalyst · Jan 12, 2010

Joesitz said:
Thanks for the clip. The slomo shows a takeoff cheat of 1/4 turn. So is that terrible when one sees the many prerotations of the loop and salchow? She did 2-3/4 air turns and how many ladies can make that with a no cheat landing?

Edge jumps have difficult takeoffs if one is looking for perfection.

Mitori's NET air rotation is between 3 - 3 1/4 blade to blade.
No current ladies rotate that much.

3Axel is VERY VERY DIFFICULT even for male skaters.

Loop & salchow are much easier jumps... using different techniques.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 12, 2010

o

SkatingAnalyst said:
Mitori's NET air rotation is between 3 - 3 1/4 blad de to blade.
No current ladies rotate that much.

3Axel is VERY VERY DIFFICULT even for male skaters.

Loop & salchow are much easier jumps... using different techniques.

I doubt you'll find a youtube of a perfect edge jump take-off. It's just too easy to spin on the ice before going up. The flip and the lutz should not be a problem because the toe-off skate should guide the proper edge.

sk8rdad · Jan 12, 2010

Joesitz said:
I doubt you'll find a youtube of a perfect edge jump take-off. It's just too easy to spin on the ice before going up. The flip and the lutz should not be a problem because the toe-off skate should guide the proper edge.

If I were going to look I would start with the youTubes of Sandhu and then try some of Joanne McLeod's other skaters. She teaches the jump without a skid, this is why many of her skaters struggle with this jump.

KayMil01 · Jan 12, 2010

I guess I don't understand the "skid" of the 3A...

Lysacek's triple Axel

silverlake22

janetfan

Match Penalty

Medusa

janetfan

Match Penalty

Sylvia

janetfan

Match Penalty

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

silverlake22

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

gkelly

silverlake22

shine

Joesitz (RIP)

SkatingAnalyst

Joesitz (RIP)

SkatingAnalyst

Joesitz (RIP)

sk8rdad

KayMil01

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