Interview with Davis and White’s Indian dance consultant

Mathman · Jan 10, 2010

Detroit Free Press columnist Jo-ann Barnas writes about Anuja Rajendra, an Indian dance instructor who worked with the D&W team on their Original Dance.

http://www.freep.com/article/20100110/SPORTS17/1100491/1365/Sports/Hooray-for-Bollywood-Ice-dancing

Q: Did you know anything about Meryl and Charlie before this?

A: Meryl's mom called me. She had read about me … and she asked me if I would be interested in working with them. She was very sweet and humble. She said, "We have couple of competitions coming up ... and maybe the Olympics."

Q: How authentic are (the dance movements)?

A: Extremely authentic. You see a lot of Indian dances, like, Bollywood is all over the place right now. But Meryl and Charlie wanted this to be very classic. So all their hand movements, eye movements, the formations -- everything is very authentic. But it's traditional with a little bit of fun -- a twinkle in the eye -- which is very important in Indian dance.

There are also some interesting details about wha some of the hand movements are inteded to represent, like holding a candle.

demarinis5 · Jan 10, 2010

^^Thanks for the link. Great read..

Hsuhs · Jan 10, 2010

Thank you for the link, Mathman.

Extremely authentic? Wonder what life684 has to say about this.

dorispulaski · Jan 10, 2010

Is life684 an Indian dance expert?

Granted the co-choreographer of the dance can't be a particularly impartial judge of it, however, the embrace of the program by people in India (the 225,000 page views) who are in all likelihood not normally huge ice dance fans, says a lot more. (And I can verify that my youtube site, which is almost entirely ice dance, not only does not have any vid with over 200k page views. The one with the most views is T&D paso OSP (over 50K views) has no more than 2K or so from India, total. And judging from the comments, the viewers world wide fall into 2 demographics: people from the UK and ballroom dancers. A typical ice dance vid gets no more than 10K page views and usually far less.

Mathman, thanks for posting a link to this article. It's very interesting to see how D&W went about creating this dance!

life684 · Jan 10, 2010

Hsuhs said:
Thank you for the link, Mathman.

Extremely authentic? Wonder what life684 has to say about this.

not much...haha... It is not just me who have questioned the authenticity of the dance. Twinkle in the eye is not good enough to make it Kathak. only section where they make it look like Kathak is the music before first song Kajra re after which they do is a what one would find in a Bollywood Movie (many have questioned it on their Youtube video, but interestingly they are marked as spam), most indians will enjoy it as tribute to Bollywood but will have hard time whenit is called folk or even classical dance.

and did u believe the choreographer is going to say it is not authentic?

But, authenticity seems last thing ISu seems to care.. if so they will have to disqualify more than 50% of the field.

Mathman · Jan 10, 2010

It must be close to impossible to translate traditional dance steps directly to the ice. But at least Meryl and Charlie are taking a serious approach to the attempt. By the way, for their free dance they also worked with a mime, Michael lee, who trained with Marcel Marceau.

This lady, Anuja Rajendra also owns a health and fitness club called Bollyfit

, where people do vigorous Indian style dances and exercises to keep trim. There is a substantial Indian population in southeast Michigan, with many Indian restaraunts and theaters.

In view of the criticism that Domnina and Shabulin received for their dark-skinned make-up in their Australian OD, I wonder if any Indian people take offence at Western dancers affecting the decorative/religious red dot on the forehead, like Meryl does.

Here is Michelle Kwan (Demarinis5's avatar :laugh:

) from Taj Mahal (featuring music from Azerbajan, not India.)

Michelle had several programs (Salome, Taj, Scheharezade, The feeling begins), that were supposed to give an impression of looking vaguely "exotic" without any attempt at being "authentic."

Tinymavy15 · Jan 10, 2010

Speaking of Meryl and Charlie did anyone see the nice article in the NY Times about them? It was about how they grew up together in Canton, Michigan and their brother/sister relationship. It was a nice read.

life684 · Jan 10, 2010

Mathman said:
In view of the criticism that Domnina and Shabulin received for their dark-skinned make-up in their Australian OD, I wonder if any Indian people take offence at Western dancers affecting the decorative/religious red dot on the forehead, like Meryl does.

Here is Michelle Kwan (Demarinis5's avatar ) from Taj Mahal (featuring music from Azerbajan, not India.)

Michelle had several programs (Salome, Taj, Scheharezade, The feeling begins), that were supposed to give an impression of looking vaguely "exotic" without any attempt at being "authentic."

i don't know whether you wanted an answer or not, but the answer to question to your question is no. The dot on the forehead is called Bindhi and in case you wanted to know about it. i am linking an wikipedia page

Hsuhs · Jan 10, 2010

life684 said:
and did u believe the choreographer is going to say it is not authentic?

But, authenticity seems last thing ISu seems to care.. if so they will have to disqualify more than 50% of the field.

Nope. But the dance is being referred to as Bollywood by everybody/ everywhere. It's even in the article. While the choreographer says no, it's better than that, so more authentic. I, too, enjoy it as a tribute to Bollywood, it's my favorite OD this season. Why can't they simply admit it's Bollywood and stop pretending they're not that shallow.

Mathman said:
also owns a health and fitness club called Bollyfit , where people do vigorous Indian style dances and exercises to keep trim.

Right

dorispulaski · Jan 10, 2010

I don't quite see why being part of a film soundtrack (whether from Hollywood or Bollywood) automatically makes a piece of music not authentic.

For example, back in 2007/2008, Summersett & Gilles skated an Applachian OD to music from the soundtrack of the movie "Brother Where Art Thou?" One of the pieces in that movie was a more or less traditional sounding recording of "I am a man of constant sorrow"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Constant_Sorrow

which is a traditional song. -here's the movie version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF5OtSO3j6I

Here's an older (non movie version) by Ralph Stanley from the 1950's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF5OtSO3j6I

I certainly would allow that version in a folk OD. Is Bollywood different? Are all the songs in Bollywood movies original to those pictures? Or are some of them traditional pieces?

Tinymavy15 · Jan 10, 2010

Hsuhs said:
Why can't they simply admit it's Bollywood and stop pretending they're not that shallow.

Becuase I doubt if it Bollywood would be condsidered "folk dance" and thus they would disqualify their own dance under ISU rules!

dorispulaski · Jan 10, 2010

The rules don't require antique country dances. Here's what communication 1567 says:

Any type of folk/country dance music or typical dance of the country can be used. For the chosen type, there are no restrictions on
the number of musical selections. Although the dance may consist of different musical selections – fast and/or slow- there must be a
consistent theme based on a specific country or region.
The arrangement of the chosen music should give a genuine feel for folk/country dance. It should be very distant from the feeling of
the Grand Ballroom.
Same examples: Village, Square, Street, Barn dance, Hoedown, Mazurka, Polka, Tarantella, Hula, Hora, Csardas, Kalinka, Gapak,
Syrtaky, Scottish, Irish, Jig, Reel, Guajira, Cumbia, Jarabe, Fandango, Aborigines Dance, Chinese dances, Lesginka, Country
Waltz, Flamenco, etc.
Argentine Tango is no

So the country is India. The music from Devdas is widely played, danced to, and appreciated in India. I don't see the problem. It certainly isn't a Grand Ballroom dance, which is what is forbidden. It is interesting that Aborigines' Dance has been explicitly added to the description this year, though! It wasn't there AFAIR, in 2007/2008's version of the folk/country OD.

life684 · Jan 11, 2010

Tinymavy15 said:
Becuase I doubt if it Bollywood would be condsidered "folk dance" and thus they would disqualify their own dance under ISU rules!

I agree with Tinymavy15 take on the subject. what they are doing is probably doing the right thing not to acknowledge it as Bollywood dance. If they had stuck to authentic Kathak etc, may not have gone down as well as it is now, so they chose to do bit more fun Bollywood. If they admit it now, very likely someone will protest and i don't think any argument will help in their case.

Because unlike in the west, Indians don't necessarily just restrict Bollywood dance to certain hand movements, music and costume, and what is more, there are no restriction on what can be done what steps cannot be done. If the choreographer decides he wants to borrow some steps from Flamenco or Kalinka, he/she can easily borrow it. Further more, if the situation (music) requires a Waltz or a Tango, there is no stopping Bollywood from doing them. I think ISU or D/W team will find it hard to sell the argument once D/W starts referring to their Indian folk dance

as Bollywood.

So I believe they should wait till the end of season to start calling it Bollywood.

bigsisjiejie · Jan 11, 2010

^^ Life684: I think you are trying way too hard to overthink, overanalyze, and overcriticize the D/W OD. Over and over again. Can you please consider taking a rest now? For me, the key lies in the ISU communication that dorispulaski quoted, especially this description:

...Although the dance may consist of different musical selections – fast and/or slow- there must be a consistent theme based on a specific country or region.
The arrangement of the chosen music should give a genuine feel for folk/country dance. It should be very distant from the feeling of
the Grand Ballroom....

It seems the ISU was never looking explicitly or implicitly for "authenticity" or a fundamentalist interpretation of "folk dance." And as long as the theme and feel is carried throughout the dance and is not reminiscent of any ballroom-type dances, they're giving teams wide latitude. At any rate, if D/W's OD was going to get dinged, then nearly every couple doing American "country" dances should be dinged x 5, as most of these dances look like something from Dukes of Hazzard old TV show, or the Lil' Abner comic strip. :eek:

Which in my book is a far worse sin than incorporating a bit of Bollywood.

Hsuhs · Jan 11, 2010

life684 said:
Because unlike in the west, Indians don't necessarily just restrict Bollywood dance to certain hand movements, music and costume, and what is more, there are no restriction on what can be done what steps cannot be done. If the choreographer decides he wants to borrow some steps from Flamenco or Kalinka, he/she can easily borrow it.

I see what you mean. I just found out that 'Jimmy Adja' from Disco Dancer is sung by Pakistani singer Nazia Hassan (read it in the comments on Youtube). As a kid, I was completely unaware of playback, I thought that was the actress's heavenly voice :eek:

BTW, do you happen to know if the name of the song Slislla Ye Chaahat Ka and the first name of Nusret Badr misspelled in Meryl and Charlie's ISU profile? Google knows Nusrat Badr and Silsila Ye Chaahat Ka. This is how I found this video (with the part used in the OD):

http://utube.smashits.com/video/wMlqNSQb-mg/Devdas-Silsila-Ye-Chaahat-Ka-HQ-.html

Or both spellings are acceptable?

life684 · Jan 11, 2010

bigsisjiejie said:
^^ Life684: I think you are trying way too hard to overthink, overanalyze, and overcriticize the D/W OD. Over and over again. Can you please consider taking a rest now?

Just read D/S post.

bigsisjiejie said:
For me, the key lies in the ISU communication that dorispulaski quoted, especially this description:

...Although the dance may consist of different musical selections – fast and/or slow- there must be a consistent theme based on a specific country or region.
The arrangement of the chosen music should give a genuine feel for folk/country dance. It should be very distant from the feeling of
the Grand Ballroom....

It seems the ISU was never looking explicitly or implicitly for "authenticity" or a fundamentalist interpretation of "folk dance." And as long as the theme and feel is carried throughout the dance and is not reminiscent of any ballroom-type dances, they're giving teams wide latitude. At any rate, if D/W's OD was going to get dinged, then nearly every couple doing American "country" dances should be dinged x 5, as most of these dances look like something from Dukes of Hazzard old TV show, or the Lil' Abner comic strip. Which in my book is a far worse sin than incorporating a bit of Bollywood.

and the answer to ur question is

life684 said:
But, authenticity seems last thing ISu seems to care.. if so they will have to disqualify more than 50% of the field.

jcoates · Jan 11, 2010

With respect, I think that bigsisjiejie's point is that every time D/W's OD is brought up and in every thread where it is discussed, you bring up the same point repeatedly. This has been going on for months. We all understand your point of view on this. Most of us respect it. Still, the vast majority don't share your opinion. People love this dance, even people who are not usually fans of D/W. Constantly going over this "issue" seems like raining on the parade, so to speak.

All that matters is that the dance is legal, the country it portrays is not offended and it is well skated.

I think she would just like to move on to new ground and not cover the same well worn point again and again.

Hsuhs · Jan 11, 2010

jcoates said:
Constantly going over this "issue" seems like raining on the parade, so to speak.

I invited life684 to participate in this thread's discussion, when I explicitly asked him about his opinion. I now see how it might not have been a brightest idea. I apologize for the provocative post and further damaging life684's reputation among American posters. It certainly wasn't my intention. I was just interested in hearing life684's opinion, since he's familiar with Indian culture, and the OD's supposed to be Indian, so I felt it was a right thing to do. But I do realize now, how silly that premise was. It's all my fault.

jcoates · Jan 11, 2010

My apologies to all for creating any sense of hurt feelings. That was not my intent.

I just wish that at this late stage in the season any questions of the "authenticity" of a dance we have all seen multiple times and discussed at length could be left in the past as we all look forward to the most exciting part of every four years for all of us. I think it's been established that the ISU standard and that of fans for any number of things, much less styles of dance will never be entirely consistent.

Again, I apologize.

Wicked · Jan 12, 2010

This was an interesting read. I hope the consultant gets to go to the Olys.

Interview with Davis and White’s Indian dance consultant

Mathman

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

Hsuhs

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

life684

Mathman

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

life684

Hsuhs

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

life684

bigsisjiejie

Hsuhs

life684

jcoates

Hsuhs

jcoates

Wicked

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