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Thread: Lysacek's triple Axel

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Lysacek's triple Axel

    Not to start another Plushenko fight , but on the other thread we were reminded of Evgeni's remark that Lysacek's triple Axel has so much pre-rotation that it is more like a Salchow.

    To me, it is not exactly pre-rotation, but rather the fact that he throws his picking leg way out to the side. Anyway, the result of this unusual technique is that he actually rotates only about three revolutions ion the air. The judges don't seem to mind it, though.

    Any comments by jump experts?

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I feel that any jump is allowed to pre-rotate half a turn. I don't personally find it to be ideal technique for the Axel, but as long as the skater is JUMPING it doesn't really matter. The bigger problem with Evan's technique is that he swings himself into the rotation, reducing the height/distance achieved, rather than jumping into the air and then rotating.

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    Former figure skater and HUGE figure skating fan. n_halifax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I feel that any jump is allowed to pre-rotate half a turn. I don't personally find it to be ideal technique for the Axel, but as long as the skater is JUMPING it doesn't really matter. The bigger problem with Evan's technique is that he swings himself into the rotation, reducing the height/distance achieved, rather than jumping into the air and then rotating.
    I would tend to agree - it's not the finest 3axel out there but it is still clean enough. I've seen some much skaters with absolutely atrocious jump technique over the years and I wouldn't put Evan on that list. Not the most attractive yes but that's not a big issue IMO.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Despite his "bad technique" Evan is very consistent with this jump the past few years. I remember him having trouble with it earlier in his career, but it seems once he started working on the quad full time the triple axel held up for him. His technique on this jump is very un-Carroll, and I am surprised that Frank did not try to "re-work" the jump when Evan joined forces with him, but I guess they took the attitude of "if it an't broke don't fix it" which like it or not, is working for him.

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    Personally, I am not an expert.

    In pictures, we can see 3 kinds of axel marks.

    Mark #1 is an ideal take-off.
    Most skaters have mark #2.
    Mark #3 is poor technique but not restricted.

    When people learn an axel jump, the coach usually says "Do not make a lot of skids." and "Take off, making few skids as long as you can."

    Evan is very very tall, so when he jumps 3 Axel, he needs more powers than the other skaters. With reagard to an axel take-off, comparison with shorter skaters than Evan is unequal contrast in my humble opinion.
    Last edited by adoreyuna; 01-07-2010 at 06:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The bigger problem with Evan's technique is that he swings himself into the rotation, reducing the height/distance achieved, rather than jumping into the air and then rotating.

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    I'm glad somebody finally pointed this out. He's 6'-freaking-2" for goodness sake. There is a reason why you can count the number of elite level skating champions in that height range on one hand. The only other one I can think of off the top of my head is Robin Cousins.

    The typical skater's body is a good five or six inches shorter than Evan at least. The fact that he can rotate, much less land, triples and quads with his body type as consistently as he does is pretty remarkable when you take the physics into account.

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    Just because he's tall, that doesn't give him a pass on crappy technique and underrotated jumps. This is a sporting event, not kindergarten.

    Hey, Tomas is a sensitive boy. Maybe we can overlook that he pops his jumps, the fact that he gets out there, in front of all these people, is remarkable, if you take psychology into account.

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by adoreyuna View Post
    Evan is very very tall, so when he jumps 3 Axel, he needs more powers than the other skaters. With reagard to an axel take-off, comparison with shorter skaters than Evan is unequal contrast in my humble opinion.
    What about Mao's 3A?

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyesOfLove View Post
    What about Mao's 3A?
    Ha Ha , I am absolutely a beginner, so it is not appropriate for me to say her 3A especially in this thread. I am sorry.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyesOfLove View Post
    What about Mao's 3A?
    Who cares it's a thread about Lysacek

    I've been thinking more and more about this. HIs triple axel is nothing like a salchow. While the mechanics of the jumps are similar and people tend to learner the lower axel and higher salchow at around the same time and both help in getting the other, there's a very big difference to being on that inside edge for the sal and the outside edge for the axel, the skaters no matter how pre-rotated and how much they skid stay on that outside edge up until the point they take off.

    That got me to thinking that maybe Evan should lobby to have the toe-less Lutz made a listed jump and perform his triple axel as a toe-less lutz - skid it round on the ice until he is completely 180 from the step onto the LFO edge (maybe even clean it up to be a proper rocker) and bam - the first triple toe-less lutz in competition

    Ant

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    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I've been thinking more and more about this. HIs triple axel is nothing like a salchow.
    Ant, you dare to question the MMMMmaaasssttteeerrr???

    Who cares it's a thread about Lysacek
    wait a little while, hughes' URs will make a cameo appearance

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Who cares it's a thread about Lysacek
    Uh.. sorry if I sounded a little off-topic, but I was just questioning if the take off skid of 3 Axel really correlates to how tall a skater is, considering Mao, who also usually skid around a half turn for Axel jump, is comparatively shorter and lighter than her taller (male) counterpart.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyesOfLove View Post
    Uh.. sorry if I sounded a little off-topic, but I was just questioning if the take off skid of 3 Axel really correlates to how tall a skater is, considering Mao, who also usually skid around a half turn for Axel jump, is comparatively shorter and lighter than her taller (male) counterpart.
    It is off topic and harping on about a half turn cheat on Moa's triple axel will ruin yet another thread with pointless bot wars. Can't you at least keep the comments on Moa and Yuna to threads about them and the ladiezzzzzzz?

    Ant

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyesOfLove View Post
    Uh.. sorry if I sounded a little off-topic, but I was just questioning if the take off skid of 3 Axel really correlates to how tall a skater is, considering Mao, who also usually skid around a half turn for Axel jump, is comparatively shorter and lighter than her taller (male) counterpart.
    I always thought a skater's height would have a big effect on jumps and make them more difficult for taller skaters.

    Recently gsrossano commented about this and had a different view citing "body type" as more of a factor than height.

    Since there have not been that many tall singles skaters over the years one has to wonder if triple and quad jumps are more difficult for taller skaters?

    I have no idea - and gsrossano's comments did make good sense.
    Any other thoughts about height as it relates to jumping?
    Last edited by janetfan; 01-07-2010 at 08:27 AM.

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