Do men need the quad at this Olympics?

I feel that there are so many injuries and inconsistency that it may be smarter not to use the quad at the Olympics. Any thought?

The following is just my impression. Pls feel free to correct.

Nobu - Some practice reports but barely at comp. Did not do well at the recent public practice.

Dai - Anxious about the quad. No success this season IIRC.

Patrick - Sounds like still practicing.

Taka - Practicing but do not do well at comps.

Tomas - He lands well but falters at other parts of the programs.

Joubert / Lambiel - Are their injuries okay now?

Plushy - I do not know.

Abott - Lands relatively well but somewhat underwhelming PCS.

Evan - I do not know.

I think the quad is a must for the Olympics, at least to secure an OGM....Plus, when Plushenko is in the competition its always best to come out with 2 quads and land all the 3A's.

Out of all the men: I only see Patrick, Takahashi, or Evan landing the quad....the others have a chance. Plushenko, Joubert, and Verner have a bigger chance at landing the quad though.

To answer the question, Y-E-S, most definitely!

I just wish for ALL the skaters to keep in mind that what may have worked for them during the GP, or even Nationals, will not do so at the Olympics. They have to do more. Truth.

From my experience of watching the Olympics, it is a whole other ballgame, scoring is a whole other ballgame. And on that note what might've garnered high marks during the GP, et al, will not cut it at the Olympics. They have to do more, way more!

Of course doing more is a big risk, and is rightfully rewarded if it pays off, but also the reverse is true. So it is up to each skater to decide if s/he feels confident enough to do the big tricks. I sincerely wish them ALL luck & back them in whatever each one decides to do.

That said, the following are my guesses as to whom will *actually* do a quad:

Evgeni Plushenko -- definitely, no question about it, he's consistent, even when injured, that's why he's known as the King!

Daisuke Takahashi -- no question about it this guy has guts, as seen during the GP, and will do it no matter what. He knows it's the difference between getting a medal or going home broke.

Jeremy Abbott -- ditto!

Tomas Verner -- he does them every time out, win or lose, so I fully expect him to do the same here.

Brian Joubert -- ditto, though he is way more cautious then Verner (whom is reckless, lol).

Stephane Lambiel -- it's his money jump, so of course he'll be going for it!


Those are my Top 6, that's it, finito! None of the other guys will even attempt one at the Olympics, no way, either they are way too cautious (ala Evan Lysacek & Nobu) or have never had the jump to begin with (e.g. Patrick Chan & sorry to say Johnny Weir).

One more note, I'll go out on a limb & say that Evgeni Plushenko will be the only one doing a quad in the SP. I say this because I don't recall any of the men doing a quad in the SP at the GPF (except Verner I think?). They may have tried it during the GP series, but when it comes to the big competitions, no way, that's the moment of truth. Do or die time. Put your money where your mouth is...


GOOD LUCK TO ALL THE MEN ~ Citius, Altius, Fortius!!!!

Nadine said:

One more note, I'll go out on a limb & say that Evgeni Plushenko will be the only one doing a quad in the SP. I say this because I don't recall any of the men doing a quad in the SP at the GPF (except Verner I think?).

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I actually can't remember when Joubert didn't at least try a Quad in the short program. And Lambiel of course has to do the Quad in the SP (and always goes for it, too).

Hmm, thanks for the info., Medusa. So I'll revise my wording a bit & say that Evgeni Plushenko will be the only man to successfully land a quad in the SP at the Olympics. Lol, it's a duel of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly again.

Nadine said:

Lol, it's a duel of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly again.

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Back to the discussion in the good old days.. Ok the ugly has more chance of landing it decently in the SP than the bad and the good. (Again using those names according to my taste )

To answer the original question, no unfortunately a quad is not needed to win at the olympics. If you have level 4 spins, 2 level 3 footwork, 2 good triple axels and use all the combos with the maximum you can get the gold without the quad. Isn't that so? And I have a strong feeling this is exactly how it's gonna go down (and none of my favs will get gold). :disapp::disapp:

USA Today just published a pretty good article on the quad. Kelly Whiteside concludes that for many skaters, the risk is simply not worth the reward and quotes several people who think that's a bad thing. About time that someone other than Brian Joubert pointed out the obvious: that skating isn't just about doing level 3 footwork, and it needs innovation and risk taking with the jumps, too.

Also, Evan Lysacek finally admits the obvious: it's not just the old injury that's keeping him from trying quads in competition, and he doesn't enjoy doing them.

Nadine said:

Hmm, thanks for the info., Medusa. So I'll revise my wording a bit & say that Evgeni Plushenko will be the only man to successfully land a quad in the SP at the Olympics.

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Both Joubert and Verner are actually quite consistent with the quad, and there are other skaters who do them in the SP (e.g. Voronov). I therefore predict that at least four skaters will land quads in the SP in Vancouver, and that at least one of those who do so won't even be in the top ten despite that.

Obviously some skaters are more handsome than others, but I won't label any skater bad or ugly without having a chance to meet them in person.

Lol, I hope Evgeni's competitors have the same mindset as schiele does! To think that their superior so-called artistry or dancing on ice will make them Olympic Champion with just the requisite triple axels, et al. Bring it on, man, bring it on!

And thanks, Buttercup, for the article, just now read it.

Once again Scott Hamilton disappoints me with his timid mindset when it comes to the jumps. Scott, this isn't 1984 wherein you won the Olympic Gold due to your figures, whereas your FS was one of the worst I've seen; no triple axel & just a very mediocre skate. It's easy for me to see throughout the decades those ones whom are your favorite; 100% of the time it was because of their artistry. My opinion is because you never really had any, you always had to rely on your comedic value, that's it. Sorry Scott I've always liked you (still do!) but this is the way I see it, and I'm finally glad to get that off my chest after all these years.

Sarah Hughes had the skate of her life when she won Olympic Gold with the most difficult content, this is why her skate is my all-time favorite of any one, bar none. Something I know you wish you had, Scott.

I do not foresee a regression back to 1984, wherein the man that won gold had the worst FS with no triple axel & popped jumps. The same cannot be said for 1988 (Brian Boitano; triple axel), 1992 (Viktor Petrenko, triple axel), 1994 (Alexei Urmanov, triple axel), 1998 (Ilia Kulik; quad), 2002 (Alexei Yagudin; quad), 2006 (Evgeni Plushenko; quad). So, N-O, I sure as hell don't see the 2010 Olympic Champion winning without a quad. No way. I'm willing to bet $$$$ on it.

Unlike the women, most of the top men can fully rotate their jumps, which is why COP has made the men thee event to watch!

Buttercup, I agree that there are men that are capable of landing the quad in the SP, but lol, of course there is more to being a Champion (let alone an Olympic Champion) than landing jumps, quad included (aka Ryan Bradley, Kevin Reynolds, Voronov, even Tomas Verner whom has shown that landing a quad isn't everything, as it should be). But let me revise my statement again -- Evgeni Plushenko will be the only man, whom has the *total package*, to successfully land a quad in the SP. By the way, my reference to The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly was a play of words in relation to the movie of the same name starring Clint Eastwood (please see Evgeni Plushenko thread wherein we joked about this).

Last note, I can totally see the bronze medalist winning third place without a quad (ala Jeffrey Buttle in 2006 and Phillip Candeloro in 1994 & 1998), but not silver & gold. The Top 2 will be duking it out, and will NOT be playing it safe, unlike the bronze medalist, whom generally relies on everybody else making mistakes to medal. The only time this was not true was at the 2002 Olympics, wherein the Top 3 all landed their respective quads, now that was one for the ages -- Alexei Yagudin (gold), Evgeni Plushenko (silver), and Timothy Goebel (bronze). I honestly hope to see something similar happen at the 2010 Olympics, wherein the medalists ALL land their respective quads!!!!

Haha, good words Nadine.. Especially the part about Hamilton made me crack up..I wish I could share your optimism but I remain on the pessimistic side, at least that way i might get a good suprise if it actually goes my way!
You know what, since it is so impossible to predict the men's podium, I just wanna make a bet about who will try the quad in the olympics..
My guess is for SP: Plushy, Jouby, Lambiel, Voronov (he is going right?). I have a feeling Verner will chose and try to stay clean in the SP.
For LP: Plushy, Jouby, Verner, Lambiel, Voronov, Dai, Oda (if he really wants to go for broke)
Let's see who's right.

So no one believes we will see this or anything close to it at the Olys... I didn't know Nobu's practices weren't going well ...

My favorite quad-man: Nobu, Verner, Abbott... Hopefully one of them at least will manage it at the Olys and land on the podium . Oh, and maybe Lambiel? I haven't had a closer look at his programs; but Euros should be interesting!

I really think the Men's event at the Olympics will be the most exciting one!! Crossing my fingers: if Eurosport will broadcast it live in the middle of the night!

Nadine said:

Buttercup, I agree that there are men that are capable of landing the quad in the SP, but lol, of course there is more to being a Champion (let alone an Olympic Champion) than landing jumps, quad included (aka Ryan Bradley, Kevin Reynolds, Voronov, even Tomas Verner whom has shown that landing a quad isn't everything, as it should be). But let me revise my statement again -- Evgeni Plushenko will be the only man, whom has the *total package*, to successfully land a quad in the SP.

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I don't really understand what you mean by "successfully" then. A skater either lands the quad clean (successfull) or doesn't land the jump clean (not successful).


I don't think any of the men who will try the quad in the SP are the "total package" they all have weaknesses.

Plush - his spins are much slower than the rest of the skaters in that group and his CH and TR are non existant in his SP, his skating has slowed down since 2006 and i think he's had lucky calls on his step sequences.

Brian - his spins aren't on a par with other that will try the quad and some of his CH and TR are questionable.

Lambiel - probably what i would all the total package but for that pesky 3A.

Verner - HEADCASE! Though if lands the jumps he is the total package too and dazzles in a way that the others just don't.

Ant

antmanb said:

I don't think any of the men who will try the quad in the SP are the "total package" they all have weaknesses.

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I must point out that a. under CoP you don't need to be a great spinner, just to check off the features for a level 4 hwell:. b. Also, Brian Joubert has a great camel spin (and the others aren't that awful).

Other than that, I agree, esp. the observation that if Tomas ever lives up to his potential, he'll be tough to beat. I was watching the Oberstdorf gala with some friends recently and one of them totally has a crush on him. So I showed her the Verner-Joubert kissy thing from 2008 Worlds .

Nadine said:

Sarah Hughes had the skate of her life when she won Olympic Gold with the most difficult content, this is why her skate is my all-time favorite of any one, bar none. Something I know you wish you had, Scott.

By the way, my reference to The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly was a play of words in relation to the movie of the same name starring Clint Eastwood (please see Evgeni Plushenko thread wherein we joked about this).

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Actually I knew what you were referring to, and I didn't find it very funny the first time, either.

Re Sarah Hughes, she was overmarked in the SP at SLC and her jump technique was atrocious, so she had difficult content but it was poorly executed. Of course, it was 6.0, and she really sold it, so her LP is remembered as a great performance.

Before we get to write about the Ladies (Sara Hughes), let me say

1. The big jumpers already have the quad. Not likely they will miss.

The Gold Contenders

Plushenko, Joubert, Lambiel

The Podium Contenders (the 'iffy' quads)

Voronov, Vernon, Abbott, Lysacek, Takahashi,

2. The Music Men. Who could use a quad for the points

Oda, Kazuka, Chan, Weir, Amodio, Brezina

To answer the original question, I think the upcoming Olympics (mens) is unique in that there's a very good chance to win OGM without the quad (given that the rest of the content is top notch).

I think, Evan Lysacek is the only guy who realizes that and will be smart enough to go the quadless route. IMHO.

Hsuhs said:

To answer the original question, I think the upcoming Olympics (mens) is unique in that there's a very good chance to win OGM without the quad (given that the rest of the content is top notch).

I think, Evan Lysacek is the only guy who realizes that and will be smart enough to go the quadless route. IMHO.

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Do you think it is because Evan (or his coach) is smarter - or just deciding to do the best they can with what they have?

Patrick is rumored to be landing quads at practice but he is another skater who may have enough abilty to make the podium in Vancouver without a quad.

"Quad" is not the key to me - and I think "clean" is the most important factor.
A clean Joubert has a very good chance to score many points as does a clean Lysacek.

The most interesting comment I have read about this came from Jeremy. He said that having a quad seems to give a skater's program a real boost in the pcs. We all know this is not the intent of the IJS - but as many point out judges are human - and it is human nature to use comparisons when justifying the placement of competitors at an event.

I think Jeremy's remarks are true - so I think the quad lovers can feel some satisfaction that even if the jump itself is not worth as many points as they would like - it does seem to provide extra points in other areas like transitions, choreo and IN.

Despite the "point scoring system" - this feels like a case of the judges reverting to 6.0 comparative marking - and using the CoP to reward the successful quad jumpers in a way the IJS tried to change. But it is still very subjective and the system can change but human nature will remain the same.

If the big jumpers can skate clean and perform with charisma they will win whether or not the rest of their skating justfies it. Call it IJS or Cop but it really feels alot like the old system.

Nadine said:

But let me revise my statement again -- Evgeni Plushenko will be the only man, whom has the *total package*, to successfully land a quad in the SP.

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I wouldn't say that Plushy has the "total package". Also, I think you misjudging the talent of some of the men who can land a quad. Joubert and Verner are fairly consistent in landing this jump in the short program. Also, what about Lambiel? His quad is much more consistent than his triple axel so he will attempt it in the short - and probably land it.

this is how i see it; the only person who utilizes a quad is Plushenko;
Lambiel cancels his out by not having a triple axel;
Verner cancels his out by double is last three jumps;
Joubert cancels his out by making 3 or 4 minor mistakes or by backing off the rest of his program;
Voronov sometimes forget there is music playing so his Pcs cancel out his quad.

So only plushenko is ahead; everyone else is equal;
I say if plushenko makes one major mistake it could be;
Oda(finally dont zayak; did do a quad triple at worlds) ; Plushenko, Jeremy Abbot (with quad) on the podium or Evan lysacek without quad or Daisuke without quad

I don't think Verner will play it safe in the SP. His 4-3 is his best element and all too often he hits it beautifully, and then pops/doubles his other jumps. He got a +2 GOE for his 4-3 at the GPF so it seems stupid to me that he would not try it. Love his Godfather program too, I really hope he can keep it together because if he does he should be on the podium! He and Carolina are two of my favorite skaters, but obviously it's hard to be a fan if such talented skaters who are such headcases!

Medusa said:

I actually can't remember when Joubert didn't at least try a Quad in the short program. And Lambiel of course has to do the Quad in the SP (and always goes for it, too).

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Yes, I think Evgeni, Stephane, Brian, Tomas, and Sergei will all be attempting quads in the SP, as they have in past competitions this season.

janetfan said:

Do you think it is because Evan (or his coach) is smarter - or just deciding to do the best they can with what they have?

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I think team Lysacek will go for a sure thing. With just clean triples and two flawless skates, Evan's already on the podium. And then that rumor about tech specialist being from Russia means there's a good chance for the caller to represent N.A. = Evan doesn't have to worry that much about wrong camera angles on his 3A's, 3F's and 3Lo's. I think Evan can count on rather generous PCS from the panel. Evan is also well-known for his mental strength and doing well under pressure.