ISU evaluation of questionable judging

Mathman · Jan 13, 2010

The ISU has a procedure for spotting and evaluating possible instances of bias or incompetence on the part of judges. If an individual judges gives a score that is outside a certain (quite generous) "corridore" about the average of the other judges, then that errant score is flagged by the computer and reported as an "anomaly."

These anomalies are reviewed by an ISU committee and if the judge in question cannot justify the marks, then the ISU issues an "Assessment" (warning). After three assessments in a season the ISU can impose some sort of "sanction," like not assigning that judge to any major competitions for a certain amount of time.

This document lists the number of such Assessments that were given out last year (section 11, page 5).

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1475

A total of 17 warning were given. Two judges each received two warnings. No one received three warnings.

Of these warnings, 10 were on program components, 4 were on technical elements, 2 were for both, and one was for a poor referee's report.

By the way, section 10 of this same document specifies the procedure ny which members can submit proposals for future rules changes.

n_halifax · Jan 13, 2010

Once again, gotta love that anonymity...

i love to skate · Jan 13, 2010

n_halifax said:
Once again, gotta love that anonymity...

I really don't understand all the fuss over annoymous judging. The ISU knows who the judges are, we as fans aren't entitled to that information - just as we aren't entitled to reviews of officials in other sports. In 6.0 we had judges that were visible to everyone. In the last three Olympics that used 6.0 - 2002, 1998, 1994 - all had some sort of scandal, controversy, public outrage over some of the results. The one Olympics with annoymous judging (2006) that we have had so far, was controversy free! Let's see how things go in Vancouver :biggrin:

Ptolemy · Jan 13, 2010

i love to skate said:
I really don't understand all the fuss over annoymous judging. The governing bodies know who the judges are, we as fans aren't entitled to that information - just as we aren't entitled to reviews of officials in other sports. In 6.0 we had judges that were visible to everyone. In the last three Olympics that used 6.0 - 2002, 1998, 1994 - all had some sort of scandal, controversy, public outrage over some of the results. The one Olympics with annoymous judging (2006) that we have had so far, was controversy free! Let's see how things go in Vancouver

I would think for most people, anything done anonymously is done with less accountability and therefore with less obligation to follow rules. Imagine if we could drive anonymously. Would driving be as safe?

We do review officials in other sports. We see them make calls and TV networks replay the activity countless times. I see the lack as accountability to the fans (anonymous judges) as a major flaw that needs to be corrected if CoP advocates want CoP to survive.

i love to skate · Jan 13, 2010

Ptolemy said:
I would think for most people, anything done anonymously is done with less accountability and therefore with less obligation to follow rules. Imagine if we could drive anonymously. Would driving be as safe?

We do review officials in other sports. We see them make calls and TV networks replay the activity countless times. I see the lack as accountability to the fans (anonymous judges) as a major flaw that needs to be corrected if CoP advocates want CoP to survive.

But it's not annoymous - the federation (ISU) knows exactly who is giving out what mark. That's the beauty of computers - you can't hide from anything. All I am saying, is let's give it another Olympics as the first one worked out pretty well.

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 13, 2010

The ISU was given a HUGE gift in Torino, though. Can you think of an Olympics where the results were simply that uncontestable?

The reason anonymous judging rankles is that if it's in the ISU's best interest, it allows them the capability to downplay a scandal, should one arise.

sk8rdad · Jan 13, 2010

i love to skate said:
I really don't understand all the fuss over annoymous judging. The governing bodies know who the judges are, we as fans aren't entitled to that information - just as we aren't entitled to reviews of officials in other sports. In 6.0 we had judges that were visible to everyone. In the last three Olympics that used 6.0 - 2002, 1998, 1994 - all had some sort of scandal, controversy, public outrage over some of the results. The one Olympics with annoymous judging (2006) that we have had so far, was controversy free! Let's see how things go in Vancouver

ITA. Just how often do you actually see an official in any sport disciplined publicly. It isn't the fans job to decide this it is the sports governing bodies job no matter what sport.

Ptolemy · Jan 13, 2010

sk8rdad said:
ITA. Just how often do you actually see an official in any sport disciplined publicly. It isn't the fans job to decide this it is the sports governing bodies job no matter what sport.

Anonymous judging provides the ISU with the opportunity to favor certain skaters.

In other sports Coaches are frequently required to pay fines for criticizing officials. The press will criticize bad calls by officials. I think the paying fans do hold the governing bodies accountable in other sports.

i love to skate · Jan 13, 2010

sk8rdad said:
ITA. Just how often do you actually see an official in any sport disciplined publicly. It isn't the fans job to decide this it is the sports governing bodies job no matter what sport.

Oh good, someone agrees with me! I was thinking I was way out in left field

Ptolemy said:
Anonymous judging provides the ISU with the opportunity to favor certain skaters.

In other sports Coaches are frequently required to pay fines for criticizing officials. The press will criticize bad calls by officials. I think the paying fans do hold the governing bodies accountable in other sports.

How does it allow the opportunity? Please explain.

Also, fans have little impact on governing bodies. Again, look at the NHL, they fined a player for speaking out against an official who made a blatant call against him for revenge from an earlier game. What happened to the referee? Absolutely nothing. The NHL hasn't even made a statement on it and it was two days ago. There's nothing the fans can do.

PolymerBob · Jan 13, 2010

If the ISU wants a little practice with questionable judging, tell them we will be holding a seminar in Spokane next week. :laugh:

Mathman · Jan 13, 2010

i love to skate said:
Again, look at the NHL, they fined a player for speaking out against an official who made a blatant call against him for revenge from an earlier game. What happened to the referee? Absolutely nothing. The NHL hasn't even made a statement on it and it was two days ago. There's nothing the fans can do.

Do you think that this action by the NHL was good or bad? Do you think that this action enhances the esteem in which the public holds the NHL, or diminishes it?

PolymerBob · Jan 13, 2010

Mathman said:
Do you think that this action by the NHL was good or bad? Do you think that this action enhances the esteem in which the public holds the NHL, or diminishes it?

The NHL could never diminish the esteem I have for them. :biggrin:

i love to skate · Jan 13, 2010

Mathman said:
Do you think that this action by the NHL was good or bad? Do you think that this action enhances the esteem in which the public holds the NHL, or diminishes it?

That's the point though - fans have little influence on organizations. The NHL doesn't care about the fans perception about them - yes the public is outraged but it was all handled "internally" and we will probably never know exactly what happened. However, is this going to affect the NHL in anyway? Nope, people are still going to watch the games on TV, buy tickets to the games, and buy merchandise.

It's the same as figure skating fans - as much as people complain the majority will always come back and new ones are being developed everyday. What other amateur sport could recover from a scandal that rocked it to it's core? I don't know of another one.

Mathman · Jan 13, 2010

i love to skate said:
That's the point though - fans have little influence on organizations. The NHL doesn't care about the fans perception about them - ...

Well, we are not really talking about how wicked, mean and callous sports organizations like the NHL, the ISU, Skate Canada, etc., are. We are talikg about whether they should treat their fans better.

Your argument seems to be that since the NHL are a bunch or jerks, so should the ISU be.

i love to skate · Jan 13, 2010

Mathman said:
Well, we are not really talking about how wicked, mean and callous sports organizations like the NHL, the ISU, Skate Canada, etc., are. We are talikg about whether they should treat their fans better.

Your argument seems to be that since the NHL are a bunch or jerks, so should the ISU be.

I didn't think we were talking about that at all :scratch:. The topic was annoymous judging and the steps to discipline judges who stray. My point was that there are certain aspects of sport organizations that are handled internally and that's just the way it is.

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 13, 2010

Fair enough. But doesn't it hurt the sport if it's not as ingrained in the psyche as Hockey is here (or Soccer/Football is everywhere else?)

i love to skate · Jan 13, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
Fair enough. But doesn't it hurt the sport if it's not as ingrained in the psyche as Hockey is here (or Soccer/Football is everywhere else?)

Figure skating is probably the second most ingrained sport in Canada. Like I said, what other amateur sport could rebound from 2002? Nationals were around 80% sold out last week and tickets for the figure skating events in Vancouver are being resold for thousands and thousands of dollars - when the original seller bought them for $100.

sk8rdad · Jan 13, 2010

I seems to me that the premise of those who are against the anonymous judging of COP base their complaint on the assumption that the ISU as a whole can and will control which skaters will win medals. I find this argument completely spurious since the ISU has no reason to want anything but fair competition. If the judging were really blatently fixed the sport would not last and the ISU know this. Anonymous judge protects the judges from National Federation pressure to vote a specific way as the Federations will not know if a judge voted the way the federation wants.

Mathman · Jan 13, 2010

sk8rdad said:
Anonymous judge protects the judges from National Federation pressure to vote a specific way as the Federations will not know if a judge voted the way the federation wants.

I do not believe it. I think it is laughably naive to suppose that the leaders of national federations cannot find out what scores their judges gave. For starters, they could ask them.

I seems to me that the premise of those who are against the anonymous judging of COP base their complaint on the assumption that the ISU as a whole can and will control which skaters will win medals.

To me, the strongest argument against anonymous judging is that it makes the ISU look like a den of thieves, even when it is not.

i love to skate said:
But it's not anonymous - the federations know exactly who is giving out what mark.

I agree with this statement.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 13, 2010

Mathman said:
The ISU has a procedure for spotting and evaluating possible instances of bias or incompetence on the part of judges. If an individual judges gives a score that is outside a certain (quite genero us) "corridore" about the average of the other judges, then that errant score is flagged by the computer and reported as an "anomaly."

These anomalies are reviewed by an ISU committee and if the judge in question cannot justify the marks, then the ISU issues an "Assessment" (warning). After three assessments in a season the ISU can impose some sort of "sanction," like not assigning that judge to any major competitions for a certain amount of time.

This document lists the number of such Assessments that were given out last year (section 11, page 5).

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1475

A total of 17 warning were given. Two judges each received two warnings. No one received three warnings.

Of these warnings, 10 were on program components, 4 were on technical elements, 2 w ere for both, and one was for a poor referee's report.

By the way, section 10 of this same document specifies the procedure ny which members can submit proposals for future rules changes.

WHO? and WHAT was the disciplanry action? I want to know for future reference. WHY should I suck up anything else as well as the skaters and coaches?

ISU evaluation of questionable judging

Mathman

n_halifax

Guest

i love to skate

Ptolemy

i love to skate

ImaginaryPogue

sk8rdad

Ptolemy

i love to skate

PolymerBob

Mathman

PolymerBob

i love to skate

Mathman

i love to skate

ImaginaryPogue

i love to skate

sk8rdad

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

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